Gange-Hrólfr 'Rollo' of Normandy - Why are there parents?

Do you really want to know why or should we discuss whether they should, or should not, remain?

Gange-Hrólfr of the sagas (with the parents) and Rollo of normandy are not proven to be the same person.

Alex, what I really want is to see you answer the latter without discussing the former :-)

So, at the very least, we should remove these parents?

No, see the revisions of the profile

The tree is heavy Bjørn, could you just tell us what of significance you spotted?

Rollo's background is controversial, the two main points of view are whether he was Norwegian or Danish:

1. Dudo wrote that Rollo was a displaced Danish king's son, son of a "king Erik" .. Written sources in Christian Europe did not distinguish between the Nordic kingdoms and did not know much difference between Scandinavian "unbelievers" robbery states, so that this claim of origin perhaps should be betviles. He also places his ancestors on the island "Scanza" (possibly Scandinavia) and on to backwards in time to Dacia.

2. Former Norwegian historians - foremost among them Gustav Storm, Alexander Bugge and Ebbe Hertzberg - questioned Dudo's source value, and pointed out how completely unreliable his presentation is otherwise in what he writes about Rollo and Denmark, with historical and geographical information at all. not right. They also emphasized that Rollo should have had a daughter, Gerloc (Geirlaug), whose name soon indicated a Norwegian connection, and that there is also a tradition on French grounds, in younger writings than Dudos, that Rollo was Norwegian. [7] The Norwegian-Icelandic history tradition claims that Rollo was identical to the Norwegian Viking chief Gange-Rolv who was exiled by Harald Hårfagre. The oldest source for this is the Historia Norwegiæ which is from the end of the 12th century. The Welsh Chronicle Vita Griffini Filii Conani of 1137 claims that Rollo was the brother of Harald Hårfagre. [7] A recent historian who is behind the Nordic traditions is Jón Viðar Sigurðsson. [8]

There are no remains left behind by Rollo. An analysis of the Y chromosome (DNA analysis) of what is believed to be Rollo's grandson, Duke Richard I of Normandy, was made in 2014. [9] Later studies show that the skeleton that was thought to be of Richard I cannot be of him, but is much older
According to Dudo, Rollo was married to a daughter of King Charles the simple, who named Gisla. It is probably fictional together with the story that at the same time he was also allowed to be baptized. [11]

Rollo was probably married to a woman referred to as Popa. [12] He had the children: [13]
the daughter named Gerloc or Adela, who was married to Wilhelm III of Aquitaine.
William Longsaw who took over Rollo's office as William I of Normandy.

The Orkneyinga saga is the most reliable source on this one, Rognvaldsson. That said, its no paternity test, so....

Some call him 'the walker' when his name actually translates to 'Walking Wolf." The Danes got that wrong too!

"Rögnvaldur jarl á Mæri, son Eysteins glumru Ívarssonar Upplendingajarls, Hálfdanarsonar hins gamla; Rögnvaldur átti Ragnhildi, dóttur Hrólfs nefju. Þeirra son var Ívar, er féll í Suðureyjum með Haraldi konungi hinum hárfagra. Annar var Göngu-Hrólfur, er vann Norðmandi; frá honum eru Rúðujarlar komnir og Englakonungar. Þriðji var Þórir jarl þegjandi, er átti Álöfu árbót, dóttur Haralds konungs hárfagra, og var þeirra dóttir Bergljót, móðir Hákonar jarls hins ríka." from Landnámsbók, Chapter 82

"Rognvald the Earl of Møre, the son of Eystein, the son of Ivar, the son of Inglund, the Half-son of the old; Third, Thorir was a silent man, who had Elaf's rest, the daughter of King Harald's hair-dresser, and their daughter was Bergljót, the mother of Earl Hacon the rich. from the Book of Settlements, Chapter 82

Sharon, that translation is just rubbish. It doesn't make any sence compared to what Guðbjörn Ívar Kjartansson wrote. Sorry!.

"King Harald's hair-dresser"? Thanks for the laugh!

There is no definitive answer to Rollo's ancestry and there is never likely to be, quoting portions of sagas or other old records at each other won't change that fact.

These points have all been made in earlier discussions, nothing has changed in the last year or two so rehashing the debate won't alter the outcome.

Do we cut or don't we?

His ancestry is controversial, no one can deny it, so what reason is there to keep the current parents? The supporters of the theory that the profile aligns with will be upset if it is cut. The detractors of the theory that the profile aligns with would be please if it was cut. The general public who have no idea there even are conflicting theories will not notice if it is cut. Users who are aware of the disagreement but don't align with either camp... given that Geni doesn't have any shades off grey, just yes or no, it would seem to me that the most responsible course of action would be reasonably obvious.

Perhaps I am wrong and there is a desire to re-hash all the same old arguments but if that is the case I can't see how you will come to any new course of action.

Anyhow, - "King Harald's hair-dresser" just shows why Sharon should stay away from these lines and not cut the parents just because someones ask her. For Gange-Hrólfr the line is "correct" according to the sagas, - the question is if he is the same as Rollo which the latest revisions has transformed him to.

I agree that keeping the saga persona and the Norman duke separated would be a good move with both RLed.
One with parents, one without.

While a central pillar of Geni is building small trees and joining them where they overlap trying to mesh semi historical trees this high up is fraught with danger in my opinion and too many genealogists seemingly make connections purely on the basis of other genealogist's, or historian's, theories.

To be precise: "dóttur Haralds konungs hárfagra" translates to "daughter of king Harald the fair-haired". Icelandic and Old Norse inflects both the names (Haralds is the possesive form of Harald) and the titles (konungs being the possessive form of konung = king), and "hårfagra" is the nickname bestowed on Harald after he had conquered Norway and cut his hair (he had sworn an oath not to cut his hair until Norway was gathered under his rule; it took long enough that his nickname was "luva" - "tangle-hair").

Wow, that's rude Bjorn. I thought king Harald's hairdresser was amusing too!

If you guys think English speakers should be excluded from a discussion about a line that affects them directly, then you're as bad as the Americans you're always calling out for chauvinism.

I have an interest in not being desceded from mythological characters, and this profile is a direct gr grandfather.

+1 Alex

Loved the explanation, Harald :-)

Here is my translation of the text

Rögnvaldur Jarl in Møre, son of Eystein "Glumra" ivarsson Jarl in opland, son of Halvdan The Old; Rögnvaldur married Ragnhildi, daughter of Hrólfs Nefju. Their son was Ivar, who was slain in Suðureyjum alongside King Harald Fairhair. Another was Göngu.Hrólfr "Rollo" Who conquered Normandy; From him descend Jarls of Rouen and Kings of England. The third was Þórir Jarl Þegjandi " the quiet", who married Álof árbót, daughter of king Harald Fairhair, and their daughter Bergljót , mother of Jarl Haákon the rich. from Landnámsbók chapter 82....

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Against which you have to set that Richer of Reims (a 10th century source) referred to him as "Rollone filio Catilli" (Hrolf Ketilsson). Detailed discussion on MedLands at the head of the "Dukes of Normandy" section http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORMANDY.htm#RobertIdied928.

Richer wasn't *quite* contemporary with Hrolf/Rollo/Robert I, but he was writing not more than two (possibly three) generations later. He may have known something that got forgotten over time.

Maven, sounds like Richer was approximately contemporary with Dudo? Dudo's writings are not given much credence these days despite being written at a time when there possibly were still some alive that remembered Rollo.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORWEGIAN%20NOBILITY.htm#Ragnvalddi... cites parents.

You'll notice they're all in brackets, though, which means Cawley isn't sure.

True, but enough doubt to justify Harald leaving them there if he wants to. :-)

Richer and Dudo overlapped, but Richer was definitely the older (probably died c. 998, while Dudo was still doodling until about 1043).

Historians take Richer rather more seriously than Dudo, because he had sources (including his predecessor Flodoard) and his sources had sources.

Did his sources sources have sources? ;)

:-)