Harris Roder - New Interpretation

Adam - Could you please send me what you are seeing for Jenny (Goldwater) Sachs birth certificate. It goes against what we know. Jenny was my great aunt, and her daughter is still alive, and we are in contact. We have evidence that Rose Order Goldwater and her husband Joseph were the parents of Jenny and all her siblings. And Harris and Raisa both have very similar, Asian looking features. If you would prefer, please respond directly to my email address. goforsix@aol.com i'll be able to share images of documents with you.
Carol

Adam - With respect to the use of the Roder name we can exclude it was used to assimilate into the UK. The reason is Reisa Mere's marriage to Joseph Glassman in 1882 in Riga. JewishGen have her name listed as ROD on the database, however the Latvian Historical Archives in Riga translated her family name as RODA. Harris' first use of the name was his marriage in London 1887 as ROTE, subsequently (as he did not write in Latin script) it evolved as RADAR, RODE, RHODER, RODER with each child's birth certificate. As D ,T and A,E are equivalents that means that both used the same phonetic family name. I accept that when Reisa came to the UK she would use her brothers spelling of the surname, which was also a German surname that others had living in the same town in the East End of London. As a historian you may know that Lt Gen von Roder commanded the Prussian cavalry corps at Waterloo, were these therefore Prussian Jews in the same town, is that why his surname evolved by registrars writing a name as they knew a similar one was spelled? People in England do not know an 'E' as the last letter is pronounced 'ER'.

There is of course other possibilities (ignoring the fact that there are other Rod families in Shavl). That is could Chaim and Hannah have been from Poland? I know this is less likely due to my Y DNA distribution because at present with one exception Lithuanian/northern Belarus i.e. Grand Duchy of Lithuania. But it does not exclude Hanna was from Poland and they were married their in a Syanagogue that would mean the children could have her family name. The problem with this as a possibility is the children would have adopted the father's surname in Lithuania and both say they were from Shavl.

Other thoughts about Hanna - Rene told me that she thought one of our female ancestors came from or had relatives in Ukraine (I do not know whether this was my great grandmother Emma Solomon(Devora Elka) or Hanna but as a caution I did not know Rene had dementia at the time, only that when I asked for clarification a fe minutes later she knew nothing about Ukraine or why I would mention it. This was however the only thing Rene has ever told me that I have not been able to prove true. I cannot think why someone would say someone had links to Ukraine it was not coached t came out as she was telling me about the family I did not know.

I too have doubts about Hanna's surname as SMIDT is only mentioned on Roses' passport documents and in USA the name SMITH is used on an official document.
As said before my second strongest DNA match is with Bernard Goldberg and his mother was a Blecher meaning TINSMITH. This does not exclude he is related to me via Emma Solomon maybe that is her mother's name? Or could just be a red herring.
If I could read Yiddish, Hebrew or Russian I would search all records

By the way, I have just discovered that I have autosomal DNA in common with a BigY match Dr Mikhail Rogov. Not a lot but interesting we may independently look at this as we share Broder name matches. Not convinced that is our connection we shall see, I may be his only BigY/FF match

Following up on Adam's suggestion that Sarah was a sibling of Raisa/Rose and Harris, it was her mother Ida who was the sibling. If you go to the page for Sarah Elkan, and click on the Media tab, you will be able to see a list of the documents. Sarah's marriage to Rudolph Elkan is Rudolph Elkan in 1892. David Jackson in Dublin did some very careful research into this lineage and discovered a number of documents when we were researching Ida Elkan's ancestry in an effort to establish where the relationship was between Ida Elkan Katz and my grandmother Edith Goldwater Jackson. He is on a short holiday right now. You may want to follow up with him in a few days.

Hi Everyone, Carol: The information about Jenny Sachs is on her Geni profile page as follows: "When Jenny was born in Belfast in Sept 1889 it was very soon after the arrival of the Goldwater family in Ireland. The family lived at 25 Penrith Street Belfast when Jenny was born. The birth cert states father is Julius Goldwater and mother is Rosa Goldwater and that the mother's maiden name was GLICKMAN not Roder. David Jackson Nov 2017" I hope that David may catch wind of this discussion and pipe in.
Phillip: This is a key fact because if Raisa was a Glickman then this would connect her to Sarah (Glick) Elkan in a way that would not be possible if Ida Ann (Roder) Glick and Raisa were sisters, right?. Because then there would be no Glick in Raisa's ancestry. However, if Sarah Elkan and Raisa Goldwater are sisters then they could both have the same maiden name Glick(man). I take cognizance of the Latvian marriage record and agree that the name Rod is in use prior to the immigration to London.Here is another alternative: could it be that the same mother of Raisa, Harris, and then Sarah was married to a Chaim Rod when Raisa and Harris were born (1862 and 63), but then married Chaim Glick before Sarah was born in 1869? Thus, Harris and Raisa use Rod(er), while Sarah uses Glick. Then when Jennie's birth certificate is drawn up, Raisa's step-father's surname (Glickman) was used as Raisa's maiden name instead of Rod(er). While there is lots of conflicting evidence, there are still some point of unity: Sarah (NY Marriage Record) and Harris (matzevah) both name their father Chaim. Sarah (NY Marriage Record) and Raisa (Jenny's birth certificate) both show Glick(man) as a maiden surname). Harris (London Marriage Record) and Raisa (Latvia/Belfast) both use Ro(t or d e(r). My only conjecture is that there are grounds for considering Sarah, Harris, and Raisa as siblings, although possibly Sarah is from a different father.

I think we'll have to wait until David is back from his holiday so he can weigh in on the Glickman mention in Jenny's profile. We have so many other documents supporting the Roder line. I have to go back to the Alien Identity book I had for her - or some other document, where her maiden name is listed as ROT or similar spelling. I think the reason David put Glickman in full caps was because it was not consistent with what we knew.

Adam - I have just gone to the alien Identity Book for Rose Goldwater dated 1917. It asks for the name of her parents - Michael Roder and Hannah Smith. It asks for her maiden name, and it says Rose Roder. I'll be happy to send you images if you will provide your email address. I don't know if I can include photos in this discussion thread.
Carol

Post Script: I am just now looking at the photo provided by Carol of "Mrs. Glick" who is presumably Sarah (Glick) Elkan (I've uploaded the photo to the profile, hope it is okay, if not I'll delete). She could well have a different father than Harris and Raisa from the facial features. Perhaps Sarah is the only Glick, and Raisa and Harris are the only Rods, but they are all children of the same mother.
Carol: No problem about the wait.

I think that Mrs. Glick is not Sarah Glick Elkan. Sarah wouldn't be Mrs. Glick, she'd either be Miss Glick or Mrs. Elkan.

How can you add David Jackson to this discussion when he returns?

To tag David Jackson to this discussion -- go to his profile, and try copying the URL for his profile and pasting it in a new comment here (am told that works; I know if you copy the number-part of the URL, put it inside double-brackets with no space between [[ and ]] - that works to tag someone - so try one of the ways)

Carol,

That would be true unless the labeling is "Mrs. Glick" is wrong.

Since the photo was taken in Dublin (photoshop address in Dublin is printed on the reverse) then the date must betaken sometime after 1890 or so and before about 1923. Since Sarah was born in 1869, she would be between 21 and 54 during those years. Her mother, the real Mrs. Glick, would have been about 20 years older (i.e., between 41 and 74) Sarah was married in NY in 1892 so this could have been in Dublin before her marriage, or she visited Dublin after her marriage. Seems that between Sarah or her mother, I'd go with Sarah even though she isn't technically Mrs. Glick. Could there be any other Mrs. Glicks?

Carol, If you send David this link: https://www.geni.com/discussions/194272 he will be brought to this discussion.

Here is the photo of Mrs. Glick for further identification: https://www.geni.com/photo/view?photo_id=6000000089676073980

Quick ReCap of the new interpretation: 1) Michael Roder + Hannah Smith begat Harris and Raisa, 2) Chaim Glaykh and Hannah Smith begat Sarah, 3) Chaim becomes step-father to Harris and Raisa therefore he is named as father on Harris matzeva and Glickman is given as Raisa's maiden name on her daughter Jenny's birth certificate. Meanwhile, Hannah Smith is the sister of Sara Smith who marries Yosef Benyakonski (my 3x ggf; see PDF in media for DNA study). Not perfect, but plausible....

Hi all, Re Rose Roder and Glick

David Jackson here. I am aged 74 living in Dublin Ireland with 3 grown up children and am a cousin of Carol Rice nee Jackson. Carol and I have been researching the Goldwater/Jackson side of this tree for a few years. Perhaps Adam Cherson can tell us something about his connection to the people we are talking about as Geni only gives me one of those 22 person-long connections between myself and him. That is even more distantly related than my connection to Queen Elizabeth.

1. When Rose who comes from Siaulniai marries Joseph Goldwater (from nearby Papile) in Riga in 1882 she is recorded as Rose Rod.
2. Joseph and Rose have 3 children in Riga, Michael 1882, Edith (Ida) 1884 and Simon 1887. I believe Harris Roder has seen some or all of these marriage and birth certs and that the name Roder or similar is used. The individuals concerned also all use some form of Roder in later official documents.
3. When Joseph and Rose move to Ireland they have nine further children from Jenny in 1889 until Doris in 1906. The images of the birth certs for all nine births are available to view for free on https://www.irishgenealogy.ie Please have a look.
4. Only on the first Irish birth for Jeanie in Belfast in Sept 1889 is the mother’s maiden name given as anything other than some form of Roder (Rhode, Rode etc). For Jeanie it is given as Gleetman, which I took to be Glickman. I would like to point out that this birth is registered by the father Julius Goldwater 19 days after it took place. Julius cannot read or write English and probably in 1889 had little understanding of it when it was spoken. The whole entry has been written by the registrar and Julius has just made his mark ‘x’. Certainly Glickman may have come up in the difficult conversation between Julius and the registrar but I think the registrar was badly mistaken to write down Gleetman as Rose’s maiden name.
5. Subsequent births in Belfast were also registered by Julius a considerable time after birth but Rose’s maiden is recorded as a form of Roder with again Joseph (or Julius making his mark). Births in Dublin are usually registered by the midwife and invariably Rose Goldwater’s former name is given as a form of Roder. So 8 birth certs in Ireland and I think 3 in Riga plus a marriage cert say the mother was Rose Goldwater nee Roder (or similar spelling). Only the very first Irish cert in 1889 mentions Gleetman.

6. Re the elegant Mrs Glick photo from Dublin. There is no evidence that the New York Glicks ever came to Dublin. I thought in 2016 that the most likely candidate for this woman was Rebecca Rosenberg 1873-1956 who marries Bernard Glick, lives in Belfast and has six children. Rebecca’s sister Fanny married Louis Goldwater, the son of Ovsey (Joseph Goldwater’s brother) and Jacob Goldwater (Joseph’s son) gives the address of a third sister Minnie (who marries Maurice Sussman and emigrates to Ohio) as his destination when he emigrates to the USA in 1914. So Rebecca Glick nee Rosenberg is part of the wider Goldwater family. Same relationship as Dinah Engleman whose photo you also have.
7. The definte ‘cousin’ relationship between the children of Joseph and Rose (Edith etc) and those of Rudolph Elkan and his wife Sarah Glick (Ida Elkan etc) is thru Rose Roder’s family and Sarah Glick’s family. Certainly the relationship between Sarah Glick and Rose Roder is not definitively settled but the parents of Rudolph Elkan that Adam Cherson mentions do not appear to figure in this connection.

Thank you David not only for this summary, but for all the prior research.

You are right to wonder about my connection to the tree. My interest arises from a strong atDNA match between my aunt, Zelda Benyakonski, and Rene (Roder) Kaufman, granddaughter of Harris Roder. The match between Rene and Zelda leaves no doubt about consanguinity within the past 3-5 generations. Further analysis confirms that the tie is through Rene's maternal Roder lineage, rather than her paternal side. I don't want to bore you with the DNA details so suffice it to say that a summary of the DNA aspects is attached as a media file to the Harris Roder profile on GENI.

Your details leave little doubt in my mind of the validity of the Roder surname as being the original name from Russian times, applicable to both Harris and Reysa.Similarly, I am persuaded the Glick surname applies to Sarah (Glick) Elkan.

The hypothesis, based on the totality of the evidence, both genealogical and genetic, is that there Sarah (Glick) Elkan could have shared a mother with Harris Roder and Reysa (Roder) Goldwater, and that this person could have been Khanna (Anna) Schmidt, who may have been married twice (1st time with Michael Roder and 2nd time with Chaim Glick). This hypothesis is presented as a viable alternative to the current construction on GENI which give Harris b1863 and Reysa b1862 a sister named Ida Anna, b1845 Courland, making Sarah (Glick) Elkan the niece of Harris and Reysa.

The photo of the behatted "Mrs.Glick", to my understanding, was discovered by Carol among her father's photos. Since I do not see any obvious connection between Carol's father and the Bernard Glick family, it baffles me to explain why Carol's father would have had this photo, especially being that of the spouse of a Glick who may have been only distantly related to Chaim Glick (to whom Carol's father has no known family connection, but who may have been a step-great-grandfather to Carol's father according to the double marriage hypothesis). Was there another copy of this photo discovered somewhere else?

I have posted this thread here merely in the hopes that over time, with GENI being such a wonderfully perpetual collaborative effort, more evidence one way or the other may arrive from unknown quarters.

Thanks again for the marvelous research work on this tree.

Hi
Rebecca GLICK's sister in Dublin became Fanny Goldwater. The families are related and many of each family knew each other in Ireland. Jacob Goldwater gives the address of a sister of Rebecca and her husband as his destination in the USA in 1914 so clearly kept in touch.
Below is exact relation between the elegant Mrs Glick and David Arthur Jackson. Interesting that you mention the Kaufman (Kropman is another form) name which is also closely related to the Shishi and hence Goldwater lines so perhaps the DNA evidence (an area of which I know little) might lead you in that direction
Rebecca (Becky) Glick
→ Fanny Goldwater
her sister → Louis Isaac Goldwater
her husband → Ovsey Goldwater
his father → Joseph Goldwater
his brother → Edith Jackson
his daughter → David Arthur Jackson
her son

Just to explain about how I came to discover the photo of Mrs. Glick. It was my father's only because it had come down to him from his mother, Edith Goldwater. She had a number of photos that were of people in Ireland that she kept after she emigrated to the U.S. My father kept her trove of letters and photos, and after my father, they came to me. Cousin David has been of great assistance in helping to figure out the relationships of those people we didn't already know.

Thank you David and Carol. To make sure I am fully understanding: Rivke (Rosenberg) Glick (aka Mrs. Glick) is the sister-in-law of Edith (Goldwasser) Jackson's first cousin and also the sister-in-law of David Arthur Jackson's first cousin, once removed, and the families were close in Dublin. That is all well and good. In looking at the wonderful photos of Fenne and Minnie Rosenberg (available via GENI on each profile) and comparing them to the 'Mrs. Glick' photo, Fenne and Minnie look like sisters to me but Mrs. Glick's resemblance to the other two sisters is not as clear, to me. Facial comparison is not my forte so I leave that there..... In this connection, the question that leaps to mind is whether there may have been a connection between Bernard Glick (husband of Mrs. Glick) and Chaim Glick (father of Sarah (Glick) Elkan)? Do you have any thoughts on this? Is there any possibility that Eliezer Glick (father of Bernard) may have been the father or brother of Chaim Glick (father of Sarah)? I could test this via DNA if there were any known descendants of Bernard Glick and Rivke Rosenbeg, but there are none on GENI. Carol, do you know if there are any descendants of Bernard and Rivke?