Sura Cyngiser (Sztern) - False descendent

hi dear linda,

For this discussion we must also include fake children of the kozker rebbe: perla morgenstern and Pinchas Leibish Morgenshtern.The people who opened these fake profiles must prove to us (the real descendant) that they are indeed our cousins,
Who opened these fake profile sinsult the memory of our grandfathes: reb menachem mendel morgenstern (the kozker rebbe) and reb dovid morgenstern-the admor of kozk

Linda Greenbaum - have you asked the manager / person who entered the information if you can delete that profile or for her source(s)?

Alternatively, if you have birth records for the siblings and none for her or her geography or date of birth are inconsistent with the family, then cite that information here and detach her.

Haim Wartski, HaCohen

Why don't you start a separate discussion, from the Discussion Tab, of the profiles that you have issues with?

I see the birthplace of Sura is 150 km from where her supposed siblings were born. That seems like good evidence that she doesn't belong to this Stern family.

I have detached her. There are 21 MyHeritage trees with those parents and no Sura. The one MyHeritage tree with Sura has no parents listed.

I'll let the manager know and she can bring counter-evidence if she has it.

Hatte Blejer (absent until Nov 1)

On your recommendation, I opened a new discussion

Thanks. Next time you start a discussion about a profile, go to the profile in Profile View (not Tree View) and click on the Discussion Tab. That will automatically link the discussion to the profile, which is useful.

I have contacted the Perla Morgenstern profile manager regarding the fact that there are no records supporting this. Also, she would have been 13 when she gave birth to Siegel. Possible but not probable.

Mostly, the proof lies in the death notice of the Kotzker where she is NOT mentioned as a survivor.

I have not heard from the profile managers.

There are two pieces of evidence IN SUPPORT of Perla Morgenshtern being the daughter of Rav Mendel and Chaya:

1) the birth record from Kock
2) the genealogy of the family in The Unbroken Chain, Third Edition, Vol III

Haim started a separate discussion in Public Discussions on this and we have succeeded in clearing up two of the three issues. You can see the birth record transcription either on her profile in Profile View (Overview) or in my comment on the other discussion.

I also wrote to the profile managers.

Our one remaining issue is that we do not believe she had children with a man named Siegal in Brest-Litovsk. Thank you for the additional information that she is not mentioned in the death notice, that is useful.

We found that Pinchas Leibish belonged elsewhere in the tree to a father with the same name, a generation or two later.

Dear Hatte
I appreciate your involvement is cleaning up the descendants of Menachem Mendel Morgenstern and his son David Morgenstern.

The bigger problem is that one contributor has misread her family tree and has attached a family from KRAKOW named STERN HA COHEN to the Kotzker Rabbi and his son David. Here are two of many, many mistakes. @Perla Ponzak ( a daughter of a wife that tsvi hirsch morgenstern did not have) @Elimelech Stern Ha Cohen, NOT a son of Rabbi David and his wife Chaia Tauba. there are no documents that verify this. Places are not Kock.

In addition, all of the brothers of@ Menachem Mendel Morgenstern of Kotzk are incorrect.
In Jewish Gen rabbinic discussion group, there is a post by Perets Mett with the correct names and where they lived with an attribution to a book by Rabbi Leivi Grossman. I messaged that to all those listed as mangers of his profile.

Finally, regarding @Perla Morgenstern, I was unclear, I was aware of her birth record. My feeling was that she did not survive to adulthood as there are no further mentions of her, especially in the death document which mentions all the other children.

Thanks for all the help

Hatte Blejer (absent until Nov 1)
dear cousin hatte,
When I wrote to you that my family did a great research on the family, one of which is linda she knows a lot more details than me, the other is Reb Baruch who wrote a book about the descendants of reb Dovid morgenstern but getting Baruch will be very difficult

hi dear linda,
Do you have the book? This will help at least for Reb Dovid

Linda Greenbaum thanks Linda, this is helpful.

I'll try to tackle the profiles you mention and will get back here with any questions or updates.

I agree that Perla Morgenstern is very unlikely to have survived childhood for the reasons you mention. I think we give the managers a week to respond and if they have not responded, we cut the family. I have been researching Morgenstern in Brest-Litovsk on Jewish Gen and I'm 90 % certain they have confused the Kock and Brest-Litovsk families.

Private User is who I have been calling upon to help with finding Hebrew language discussion on rabbinical genealogies. My modern Hebrew is very good, but it gives me a headache to try to read the genealogies in Hebrew.

I'm comfortable if we start discussions from the profiles that are issues so that we leave a record of why we made the decisions we did, when we detach.

Elimelech HaKohen Stern, Ha Cohen "...NOT a son of Rabbi David and his wife Chaia Tauba. there are no documents that verify this. Places are not Kock."

Grand Rabbi David Morgenstern, 2nd Admor of Kotzk

Rbzn. Chaya Tauba Morgenstern, of Kotzk

Perla Sztern

I've changed Perla Sztern's married name to match her children and detached her as a wife of Rabbi Tzvi Hirsch Morgenstern, Lomazer Rebbe

The geography is wrong but I also noticed that Perla Ponzak was attached to her father and her husband in an automated merge program that ran on December 29, 2010 that left many errors in the tree. It's useful to look at Revisions.

There are Ponczak in Lublin, but I can't place her anywhere.

And the profile that you started the thread about also had a Revision on December 29, 2010.

Yechiel Meir Morgenstern, of Lodz, Admur Kotzk-Bnei Brak was the son of the second wife of Zvi Hirsch. I've added her and her father to the tree and changed his mother to Sarah Menucha.

David b. 1810/11 m. Chaya Toyba Grunwald

Children (The Unbroken Chain, Third Edition)

1. Jacob Joshua b. 1836 m. first, the daughter of Moshe Mozes of Biala, and second, Golda Chavele Gunzburg

2. Haim Israel b. 1838 m. first, Yoheved Frankel, and second, Dushka/Bishke Gorfinkel (his niece)

3. Zvi Hirsch (Hirschele) b. 1852 (is this correct?) m. first Yota Henia Gutterman, second, Sarah Menucha Landberg, and third, Feige Leah Goldman

4. Baruch Mordechai b. 1838, died age 19

5. Rochma, b. 1834 m. Jacob Shapiro

6. Deborah Gitel b. in Kock, married there in 1842 to Simcha Bonem Estreich

7. Rebecca (Ryfka) b. 1832 m. Shraga Feivel Weingot

8. Glicke, b. 1841 m. Jacob Flamenbaum

9. Leah b.c. 1843 m. Rafael Jacob Tuman

10. Sheindel Feige b. 1841 m. Abraham Eliezer Landberg of Warsaw

11. Nechama married in Kock in 1869 to Abraham Gorfinkel

12. Esther b. 1833

I've detached Elimelech HaKohen Stern, Ha Cohen from Admor David Morgenstern.

I see now the Families of Krakow family (Stern, Piller, Pufeles) being confused with the Morgenstern of Kock family. Some of this may have happened in the automated merge of December 29, 2010.

For reference, here is the Krakow family, all of which are on Geni: https://www.ics.uci.edu/~dan/genealogy/Krakow/Families/Stern.html#M...

Liebe Kosches of Krakow detached as sibling to the first Admor of Kotzk.

She and her Kosches (Koszyc) husband belong to the Stern and Kosches families of Krakow.

https://www.ics.uci.edu/~dan/genealogy/Krakow/Families/Kosches.html...

Chief Rabbi Yechiel Sztern, Ha Cohen detached as sibling of the first Admor of Kotzk. He was married to a Krakow family and although I haven't found where he belongs in the Stern family of Krakow, he isn't a sibling of the Admor.

Hatte Blejer (absent until Nov 1),Private User

I thank you very much and greatly appreciate your efforts !!!

In order to clarify all the issues and the truth will come out:
1: According to the list, my great-grandmother (2 th) ryfka weingot nee morgenstern is the eldest girl, to my best knowledge, she was the second, before her was born son.

2: in the profiles of weingot family(my great-grandfather 2th),There are some surnames such as weingort. I do not know if it is because it can be write the surname as well, or a mistake, or someone has attached incorrect profiles, as was the case with reb menachem and reb dovid.I would be very happy that the subject be examined (if you think I need to start a new discussion, I'll do it)
If shmuel needs help, I'll be happy to help him (this will not be the first time I've been cooperating with him)

Dear Hatte
Thank you so much for finding the root of the STERN HA COHEN family of Krakow conundrum!

As for the list of children of David and Chaya Tauba Morgenstern:

Dworya Gittel b. Tomaszow 1829 B 4.She would have been the first born daughter.

Tsvi Hirsh 1852 is correct.

I assume that Esther did not survive childhood.

There were at least 4 other children who did not survive childhood Hana Dyszka, Szeywa, Icek, Szloma All from Kock records)

I really don't know anything about the sarah menucha landberg wife of @Tsvi Hirsh Morgensztern. I've heard of the other two

There are clearly two families mixed together here. Admor Menachem Mendel Morgenstern, Kotzker Rebbe was not a Kohen!

Linda Greenbaum please see discussion https://www.geni.com/discussions/193938?page=2