Roger I of Hauteville, great count of Sicily - Inconsistencies

Judith d'Évreux, dame de Saint-Cénéri changed date:
post 1040 ita
about 1040 FR

Mathilde II : studying the point of view of the husband's family.. I think it's a French gamble. there is more to investigate.

Okay :-)

I write here some little easy sure update of small details blocked to do:
- Roger I of Hauteville, the great count of Sicily born in "Hauteville-la-Guichard" (FR)
-----
-in agreement with medlands assign to the second wife Eremburge de Mortain:
-Muriella de Luci, of Sicily,
-Sibylle of Sicily
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The profile isn't locked.

ROGER de Hauteville ([1031]-Mileto 22 Jun 1101, bur Mileto, Abbey of the Holy Trinity). Malaterra names "septimus Rogerius minor" last among the sons of Tancred & his second wife[269]. The Annals of Romoald agree that he was the youngest son[270]. Amatus records that the brothers "Mauger, Geoffrey, William and Roger" arrived in Apulia from Normandy[271], dated from the context to [1054/57]. He was installed by his brother Robert "Guiscard" as ROGER Count of Sicily in 1071. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SICILY.htm#Rogerdied1101A

m firstly (San Martino d'Agri Nov 1061) JUDITH d'Evreux, daughter of GUILLAUME d'Evreux [Normandie] & his wife Hawise --- (-1076).
1. --- of Sicily .
2. MATHILDE of Sicily (1062-before 1094).
3. EMMA of Sicily ([1063]-after Aug 1119).
4. ADELISA of Sicily (-before 1096).
5. JORDAN of Sicily (-Syracuse 12 Sep [1091/92], bur Santa Maria, Mili San Pietro).

m secondly ([1077]) EREMBURGE de Mortain, daughter of ROBERT Comte d'Eu [Normandie] & his first wife Béatrice --- (-[1087]).
6. [FELICIA] of Sicily ([1078]-[1102]).
7. GODEFROI "il Leproso" of Sicily (-[1096/1120]).
8. MAUGER of Sicily
9. CONSTANCE of Sicily (-after Jul 1101).
10. MURIELLA of Sicily (-after 1119).
11. MATHILDE of Sicily (-after [1132]).
12. FLANDRINA of Sicily.
13. [SIBYLLE] of Sicily.
14. JUDITH of Sicily (-before 19 Oct 1136).

m thirdly ([1087]) as her first husband, ADELAIDA del Vasto, daughter of MANFREDO del Vasto Marchese di Savona [Monferrato] & his wife --- ([1072]-Palermo 16 Apr 1118, bur Patti, Convent of San Salvatore).
15. SIMON of Sicily (1093-28 Sep 1105).
16. ROGER of Sicily ([22 Dec 1095]-Palermo 26 Feb 1154, bur Palermo Cathedral).
17. MAXIMILLA of Sicily.

Count Roger had one illegitimate child by an unknown mistress:
18. GEOFFROY (-after 1120).
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SICILY.htm#Rogerdied1101B

I moved those daughters.

cf https://www.geni.com/discussions/210304?msg=1378146

Debbie Gambrell

See this comment about Eremburga’s family:

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eremburga_of_Mortain

Eremburga of Mortain (Eremburge de Mortain)[1] was the second wife of Count Roger I of Sicily and thus the second Sicilian countess.[2][3] She is very obscure and details of her life are almost unknown to us today.

Her father was either William, Count of Mortain[4] or Robert d'Eu, and if he was Eremburga's father, then her mother was called Beatrix.

—-

I agree with Livio Scremin’s observation. It does not appear she had a surname inherited from her father (or a husbands surname either). Rather, the “ de Mortain” we see is a toponym - a use name describing where she was from. Same for her brother.

I changed the name to more closely reflect how it’s styled in sources.

de Mortain?

I think It’s better? Of Mortain in English, di Mortain in Italian, I don’t see the Latin as yet (is there a charter?)

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/normacre.htm#EremburgeMortaindied1087

Geni Medieval Naming Conventions would have the version of her name closest to the original that we know as her default name. She wasn't English and neither are many/most of the people descended from her.

The modern translation can appear as her display name to appease the English.

cf https://www.geni.com/projects/Medieval-Europe/3198

I can’t get it to work the way I would think using display name, so leaving it as French only.

about 2 daughter of 18
MERGE as same person this 2 sisters:
(Italian studies on the passage of the county given as dowry to the first marriage)

-[2015] Flandrina de Hauteville, countess of Paternò & Butera

-[2011] Flandrina de Hauteville, countess of Paternò & Butera (whiten first)

Medlands simply lists them as 2 sister separately with unique marriage information, without even being able to give she a name. So no paper contrasts the stories of the families involved, which all identifies Flandrina widow of Hugh of Jersey:
-all described in the info about.

Livio, they look like two different women to me, by different mothers.

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~corpusnobiliorum/genealogy/hautvill....

15.3. *by 1* Adelisa, known 1083, married Enrico, count of Lucera and Gargano.

15.9. *by 2* countess Flandrina of Paterno and Butera, married before 1094 Enrico di Savona (died 1137)

Private User Didn’t you have Hauteville as an area of interest? Did you want to look at this point?

no Erica you have the wrong line, in that table it is also without a name:

15.11. *by 2* a daughter, married Hugo "Malmosetto" di Gircee (killed in battle 1076).

and being a recent online table it will surely derive from MedlLnds which, not having sufficient evidence, limits itself to elecating the information available in "different drawers" and that all, as you well know, copy faithfully.
But it's just a filing system (by now I'm in tune with their method :)

Did you use a translator to snatch the Italian studies on the transfer of ownership? ;)

Nah, I was just looking to make sure I understood. I do not see that the same woman was the widow of one man and married another in Medlands. So I’m missing something.

that is explained to you by the Italian studies on the transfer of ownership.
I have put you a small summary of the highlights on the profile of Flandrina de Hauteville, countess of Paternò & Butera (try some translators)

MedLands simply files the little documentation available of the two documented marriages.

very interesting to read how everything fits together in the story of the first husband Hugh of Jersey, count of Paternò

a real pity not to know Italian ;D

I need pictures. :)

http://www.castles99.ukprint.com/Essays/Sicily/Butera.html

Before 1094, Roger's daughter Flandrina was married to the Lombard, Henry Vasto (d.1137). By 1115 the couple had certainly acquired Paterno and by 1130 Butera. Possibly this was Flandrina's marriage portion, or more likely as the gift of Count Roger's widow, Flandrina's mother in law. She was Adelaida (d.1118), the sister of Henry Vasto (d.1137). Henry and Flandrina were succeeded by their son Simon (d.1156), who was arrested for his plotting against Admiral Maio (d.1160) in 1154 and held without trial. ...

http://www.castles99.ukprint.com/Essays/Sicily/Paterno.html

Some time after 1072 the castle was granted with Butera to Henry Vasto (d.1137), probably by Count Roger's widow, Adelaida (d.1118), the sister of Henry. Consequently in 1115 Count Henry the son of Marquis Manfred made a charter as lord of Paterno within his fortress in favour of the Stratigos William. This was witnessed by his barons who were obviously holding court in his castle of Paterno. He was doing so again on 9 March 1130 when he made another grant in Butera. ...

Still lost.

Need a tree.

Nah, what I needed was an Italian translation file added to stand a lone google translate module on iPad, a wonderful new application.

- https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrico_del_Vasto

Three of Enrico's sisters also came down to Sicily. Adelaide, the most famous, who married the great count Ruggero in 1087 (or 1089) and became countess of Sicily; while the other two sisters married Ruggero's illegitimate children, Giordano and Goffredo.

Enrico married Flandina, also Ruggero's daughter but born from the marriage with Giuditta d'Evreux. Flandina was widow of the Norman knight Hugh of Jersey ...

NOW I got it, merge underway.