Thomas Pasmere Corn Planter Carpenter - Duplicate people need a merge.

Totally not worth the effort to merge another fictitious tree.

Mark Gregory Locke This is my plan:

- I will isolate from real people
- then you can delete the imaginary fragment

That was what I was wondering too, takes so much time.

I understand

Thanks, Mark.

Mary Ottertail Is the entry profile into Cherokee & she’s a little messed up - currently looks like she married her son & grandson. :(

Let’s work on straightening that out and sourcing parents, who probably have Master Profiles already

?? Cherokee Ottertail

Ani-Ga-Tage-Wi

The mother was disconnected from Amahetai Pidgeon Moytoy & Ant Gatagwe I Woman and that’s probably where genealogy jumps the shark.

What happened was Jim Hicks who is ordinarily a good researcher went too far into the legendary on the Moytoys. So we on Geni have isolated out “the real Moytoy tree” which is actually quite small; the reality is that very little is known / recorded before 1800, and as best we know, Moytoy had only one surviving son, who did not have children.

That’s “separate” from the fictional Trader Tom Carpenter tree! But they intersect - that is, the Jim Hicks “too far” met the “created fiction” Trader Tom and sucked into the “agenda driven” Shawnee Heritage tree. Leaving a right mess we almost have tamed after years of effort. Hence - deleting much appreciated rather than merging.

Let me define the other end point profile, I will then mark it Fictional, which makes it even clearer it’s OK to delete.

Probably the confusion came in with the actual Piqua Shawnee with the Pasmore families' very real Thomas, but he is an understood brickwall and does not go to Moytoys, at all.

https://www.geni.com/people/Chief-Pineshooter-Wáȟpe-šá/600000008258... Was disconnected from Unknown Profile & Unknown Profile

There is a Lakota descent line which is probably valid as far as I know. But any origins with the Powhatan tribe in Virginia needs to be discussed and sourced, and is not something to address today in this cleanup.

There as no Thomas Passmore. It’s a huge misinterpretation.

There was a Thomas Passmere in Jamestown, a carpenter by occupation. By the miracles of the internet his name was re written as Thomas Passmore Carpenter, and he was given a fictional
Shawnee wife. In a cave. Who had Cherokee children, who became Emperors.

It’s garbage and insulting to native heritage garbage at that.

Don Greene has a theory that Powhatan sent one of his 100 kids away with a retinue and they became the Piqua Shawnee, “from the South.” There’s something appealing / plausible about it, but there’s no proof. In real history as we know it the Shawnee & the Cherokee were enemies, and there is nothing in the anthropology to support.

Also this is not relevant to the fictional
Thomas Passmere Carpenter. The real one did not have surviving children. His first wife was Jane - they are listed in the Jamestown muster of 1625/6. It looks like he went to Maryland later, and his widow was Martha.

Carpenter Cousins (a registered one name guild, who also has one of America’s most respected genealogists on retainer) cannot find any Carpenters in the American South this early.

Other than paper, which I know is about primary sources that are the kind that are like census papers, etc, it is easy to know who is fictional or not using atDna group browser of Tier One App set to Triangulations in a More Than One Kit setting. Matching cousins at 4th distance will have 15 cM or greater on a few clusters, or at least one; and, with the Tier One App that anyone can plug in anyone else's kit numbers, the Triangulations App takes its time on 1000 up to 10,000 matchers. Anyone' kit number to any other random claimants of certain ancestors will either cluster up in a compact view choice (click compact view) or it won't. Easy for anyone to replicate about with a listing of any claimants who claim anyone. You can take random Moytoy claimants of Amatoya, plug in their kits, see if they triangulate anywhere and what you will get is no one matching at even a 7 cM level. This is based on experience of trying it with teams who have tried it and did not obtain a triangulation compact line. Someone who does have this compact triangulation view is Keziah Bryant's claimants and Matachanna, etc, many others.

Is there a project....that you can show your kit # from gedmatch....and who your closest full-blooded Native American was (naming tribe).... so someone who knows how to do all that Triangulation stuff can compare everybody? It is over my head.

Yes, many projects, are ongoing; but, also a person who uses Gedmatch in the Tier One app can also run the Triangulations App to see if people match in the way thaty they claim with large numbers needed as only 1/4 of cousins from the 4th generation show matches in a triangulation; so it takes large numbers and Tier One automatically provides numbers like that with emails of participants. The choice of 1000 up to 10,000 matchers can be chosen on a Segments app in Tier One also. The other thing is that FTDNA and 23andMe automatically provide the triangulations. 23andMe goes with your 500 closest clousins. FTDNA will triangulate for you to lower cM cousins or more distant ones. The Tier One app will not show tribe; but, it will show ethnicity as compared to control groups in the Eurogenes App.

Mark Gregory Locke Thank you for your deletions! Geni admin, at my request and after reviewing this discussion, deleted more of the “in Between / duplicated” profiles for us.

Let’s work on that Ottertail tree, I do think there’s something to it, but it’s incoherent at the moment.

Erica, glad it helped! There is some hard names to get thru, I was just trying to build my tree, gathering info thru messages, I had seen on different sites. And Ottertail is where my sister stopped years ago. I have seen different Ottertails, the Native Americans, have so many names, according to ancestry. Thank you for helping!

Let me make it very clear!!!! The REAL Thomas Passmore whose occupation was a carpenter and was married to Jane is my direct line!! They DID have a surviving child , a son!!! I don't know who this thomas pasmere carpenter is that everyone keeps talking about. Thomas Passmore whose occuptaion was a carpenter and was married to Jane WAS A REAL PERSON AND IS MY DIRECT LINE. I have asked and asked people to get their facts straight. And no, Thomas Passmore was NOT native american and was NOT married to a native american. If anyone has any questions or comments then please contact me directly at Janet180704@yahoo.com

Janet Passmore

Wow Janet Yvette Passmore good to know. Where might we find records on Thomas Passmore’s son ?

Mark Gregory Locke I think I got the McGee tree straightened out, if you could review? There’s a “data dump” in the profile, Joseph McGee, Sr.

Perhaps add pieces of it the tree profiles?

Kathryn Forbes Any clues on this Mary Ottertail?

When George Passmore was born in 1651 in Jamestown, Virginia, his father, Thomas, was 53 and his mother, Jane, was 48. He had one son with Elizabeth in 1720. He died on July 15, 1751, in Sussex, Virginia, at the impressive age of 100.

George was listed as being 39 years older than Elizabeth when they married. In 1678 George fought in Bacons Rebellion in Virginia on the side of the Royal Governor Berkley. He was patented 900 acres of land in Charles City in 1698 for paying the expenses to import 14 indentured servants from England. His will was written August 11, 1750 and probated November 19, 1751 in albermarle Parish Surry County VIrginia. His son-in-law Mathew Gibbs was the executor and all property was given to his son John Passmore. Register of Albermarle Parish, Surry and Sussex Counties, 1739-1778 by Gertrude R.B. Richards, National Society Colonial Dames of America. 1958 page 216: George Passmore aged 100, d. march 10, 1750/51: i. Mathew Gibbs. This old man came into ye Country a soldier in the time of ye brave Mr Bacon's being in Arms for his Country. George is thought to have fought in Bacon's Rebellion in Virginia on the side of Governor Berkley. On April 17, 1751 he was patented 900 acres of land in Charles CIty County Virginia for paying the expeses to import 14 indentured servants from England.

MY DIRECT LINE, JUST LIKE I SAID!!! HIS OCCUPATION WAS A CARPENTER. MY THOMAS PASSMORE IS THE ONLY REAL THOMAS PASSMORE

When Thomas Passmore was born in 1598 in Wiltshire, England, his father, Robert, was 24. He had one son with Jane in 1651. He died in 1652 in Jamestown, Virginia, at the age of 54.

Thomas Passmore came to America in 1623 on board the ship Georgia. He wife was listed as Jane. It is documented he had three servants who he brought with him but they traveled on a different ship as was the criteria for the London Company. The names of the servants were: Thomas Kerfit age 24, Robert Julian age 20, John Buckmeister age 20. They came aboard the ship Great Hopewell. One the 1623 muster rolls Thomas is shown as having one house, 16 barrels of corn, 2.5 bushels of peas and beans, 1 hogshead of meal, 400 dried fish, 1 hogshead of wet fish, 3 cattle, 6 swine, nad 4 pigs.

Early Virginia Families along the James River- Thomas Passmore: Carpenter, 12 acres within the corporation of James City, adj. Mary Holland. August 14, 1624, p 10. Part of devident and for trans. of his servant John Buckmater who came to the Great Hopewell in 1623.

Thomas Passmore/Pasmere/Pasmore was probably born about 1575 based on the age he gave in a deposition. He came to Jamestown on "The George," but the exact year is unknown. He was in Jamestown by 1618 when he was a witness in court.

He was married before 1624 to a woman named Jane, mentioned in a court case and listed on the 1625 muster.

Thomas patented 12 acres on Jamestown Island and owned another parcel of 16 acres nearby. He sold that land and moved to Maryland before 1638. He died there after 1652. Thomas and Jane had no recorded children.

There is no one named Ottertail in any Cherokee records. A single man named Josiah McGee was living on Chickamauga Creek in Georgia at the time of the 1835 census. A white man named Calloway McGee was involved in a court case with John Rogers in 1834. No other mentions of anyone named McGee.

http://www.hicksfamilygenealogy.com/

Diana Collins That’s a really potted genealogy.

For example, I’ve been working on Carpenters for 10 years, and the site has a bogus lineage up.

And after all our work getting the Moytoys into reality?

:(

Yea....I had never seen that site before. I looked on geni for a Jean Macy Clinton. If you do a search, type that name....and a "carol Jean Macy Clinton" pops up. Don't know if that's the one that wrote the Hicks genealogy or not. Maybe she has documents....or something.

For Cherokee genealogy stick with Geni & Wikitree.

Thomas Pasmere Corn Planter Carpenter
1607–1675
Birth 1607 • Plymouth, [parish], Devonshire, England, UK
Death 1675 • Cherokee, Washington, Tennessee, USA

Marriage
30 Aug 1563 • Walkern, Hertfordshire, England
Princess Elizabeth Pride Chalakahatha Shawnee Carpenter of Red Paint Clan
(1615–1679)

Complete made up junk. No such people ever existed. Aside from the fact that they never existed, how exactly would a Shawnee woman get to England long before any English colonists came to Anerica? And how do you marry a man 40+ years before he is born? How did Thomas get toTennessee to die there more than 100 years before it existed and before any Europeans had crossed the Blue Ridge Mountains?

Strictly speaking, one John Lederer, a German immigrant who was also a physician, did a peekaboo over the crest of the Blue Ridge in 1669 and again in 1670. But he didn't do anything about settling there or encouraging others to do so. (This was thought to be Not A Good Idea because the territory west of the crest was claimed by the Iroquois and the Shawnee - who sometimes fought over who had which hunting rights.)

I might add, it's amazing how people *will* hang onto these absurd and easily disprovable ideas in defiance of all evidence and common sense.

The earliest that Thomas and wife Jane can have got to Virginia is May 1617 (first of several round-trip voyages of the "George", the last of which was in 1623).

What I posted, I found on another site. I removed this person from my tree.