Rütger van Pallandt - Fictional person

Started by Private User on Friday, February 22, 2019
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This person never existed. Arnoldus Parvus (mentioned first in 1309) is the oldest documented ancestor of the Von Palant family. He was a citizen of city of Aachen who was not of noble birth and who bought the lordship of Breitenbend. The lordship Palant was bought by his son Karsil I in the 1340s. All generations above Arnoldus Parvus are fictional, made up in later centuries to give the Von Palant family a more glorious past. See the book from Gisela Meyer on the Von Palant family: Gisela Meyer. Die Familie von Palant im Mittelalter. Veröffentlichingen des Max-Planck-Instituts für Geschichte. Band 202. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, Göttingen, 2004

Zie ook Lord Arnoldus Parvus von Breidenbend het is de moeite waard om de eventuele fictieve voorouders te markeren.

Please use this discussion to mark the fictional persons of the Palant family.

I erased the 1st millennium AD ancestor that I mastered a few years ago. I suspected he was not a real person; not enough data could be found about him.

Hi Private, is it common practice to erase the profile. I had rather inspected that the profile would be marked as fictional persons.

I will add all the other profiles in the line that are the result of forged pedigrees (everybody that is ancestrial to Arnoldus Parvus) to this discussion, so that they can also be erased or marked as fictional

Hi Private User, I had also seen that http://www.freiherrvonpallandt.de/ website. It only adds one generation of ancestors to Arnoldus Parvus, so it looks more credible. But it conflicts with the thesis in the academic standard work on the Pallandt family (Gisela Mayer's "Die Familie von Palant im Mittelalter"), who clearly explains that according to her Arnoldus Parvus was not related to earlier lords of Breitenbend but instead was a rich patrician who bought the lordship from his predecessor

It is a long list. Is it possible to find the relations where the tree is moving from real to fake??

And the problem with the books is that they are no updated. But a website can be updated. But a book and a family website is better then no proof or sources.

Jeroen, as I tried to explain earlier: all the above mentioned profiles are fake. Arnoldus Parvus is the oldest known ancestor for whom there is proof in primary sources. All other persons were "invented" by 17th century forgers to "proof" the noble descent of the barons of Pallandt. because they were not pleased with a 14th century common citizen og non-noble descent as ancestor and wanted that "repaired". Something that is seen much more in that era.

the Von Pallandt website gives only one generation above Arnoldus Parvus (without showing evidence) and that differs from the line given previously on geni. So that website actually agrees that all profiles mentioned above are made up

I am not to keen on using wikipedia as a source, because it can also be quite unreliable, but since you mention websites: even the Dutch wikipedia states the same: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Pallandt_(geslacht). And the German wikipedia (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallandt) even explain the whole thing in detail:

Das Geschlecht ist ein zunächst niederrheinisches Adelsgeschlecht und taucht erstmals 1316 in Geldern und Brabant durch den Reichsfreiherren Rüdiger van Pallandt auf. Die Familie gehörte zum Geschlecht derer von Brabant. Eine Herleitung des Geschlechts aus einem Diplom von Kaiser Friedrich III., das den von Palant eine königlich polnische Abstammung bescheinigte und die ordentliche Stammreihe mit einem Wilprand Germinitzki (auch: Wiprecht Germinezki) begann, stellte sich als eine Fälschung heraus (Lit.: Oidtman, 1894). Tatsächlich ist erst 1323 mit dem Ritter Reinhard von Palant ein erster Namensträger als Lehnsmann derer von Cuyck urkundlich verbürgt. In welcher verwandtschaftlichen Beziehung er zu späteren Mitgliedern der Familie steht, konnte aber bisher nicht geklärt werden.

Rüdiger van Pallandt, ein Urenkel Wilprands von Pallandt erbte mit seiner Gemahlin Johanna von Bredebend (Breitenbend), der letzten ihres Geschlechts, die Herrschaft Breitenbend im Jülischen und wurde 1316 zum Freiherrn ernannt. Als Stammvater derer von Palant wird heute Arnoldus Parvus angesehen, der von 1312 bis 1318 u. a. das Amt des Vogtes und des Meiers von Aachen innehatte. Ab 1327 wird Arnoldus von Breitenbend genannt, was u. a. beweist, dass der älteste urkundlich nachweisbare Besitz der Familie nicht das Haus Palant, sondern das Gut Breitenbend bei Linnich war. Arnolds Sohn Karsilius ist der erste seiner Familie, der sich von Palant nennt.

Aspecially wikipedia is not a source. But I will look at the dutch and the German wikipedia pages.

Wikipedia has it strong points and weak points and on family tree it is very weak. Were the English wikipedia is strong on sources and so. There is a completely lack of controle in the other language versions.

But I am completely fine with following the Von Pallandt website. So for now we cut of the profiles that very likely product of the 17th century forgers.

I see that only Willebrandt Van Pallandt is connected to the big family tree. But we know it is fake. But I think that will not affect the dutch tree or the dutch branch Von Palant.

I have removed him also from the tree. I have found some other profiles named 'Pallandt' before the official point where it should be fake and they all not connected to the big tree.

There is one lose end and I have warned the manager that is very likely fake and I hope he will join this discussion. BTW it is safe to switch to English. If needed we can restart this discussion in Dutch.

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