Ragna Olufsdatter - Sources for Ragnas husbands and children?

"Before I cut ", Remi, you're not to cut off anything, simply put a footnote in the profiles instead

We can see that he calls himself Harald Marsk, because he was Marsk under king Valdemar II Sejr and Erik IV Plovpenning, then his grandson retakes the Bild coat of arm, "Niels Olufsen Bildt førende medlem af det kongelige raad", conclusion easy to make, also the name "Skammel" are reused in this family, just as it should be if they were related.

Don't you have any other interest that suit you better beside genealogy?

Ulf, if you don't have anything meaningful to contribute to the questions asked in this discussion, please refrain from answering. With reliable I mean that you show me sources I can read and not just writing an unsourced statement. And this discussion is about Ragna Olufsdatter, and not Harald Olufsen Marsk or his descendants, please stay on subject.

And, if I weren't in such a good mood today, I would have reported you for what you wrote in your last sentence. Keep on being rude and see how many that will listen to you anymore. This time I have done exactly what you have asked us to do, start a discussion before we change anything, and this is how you respond! Shame on you!

Remi Trygve Pedersen But I did actually give you something meaningsful, guess you didn't see that?

"We can see that he calls himself Harald Marsk, because he was Marsk under king Valdemar II Sejr and Erik IV Plovpenning, then his grandson retakes the Bild coat of arm, "Niels Olufsen Bildt førende medlem af det kongelige raad", conclusion easy to make, also the name "Skammel" are reused in this family, just as it should be if they were related."

Rude, I'm not, just honest and sincere, many others here have also objected against your methods and it's hard for them and me to see your point in your locking and cutting games. It's a shame that you have the power to block people, that's why I have suggested that we user can vote some of you curators away as some of you definitevely aren't suited to the task.

Ulf, without a source the information is useless.

But the person I am talking about is NN Olufsdatter and not her grandson

What you obviously don't understand yet, Ulf, is that we want a correct tree without fantasy and theories reflected as links between persons in our tree. That is also the reason for the discussion about Ragna Olufsdatter. She has no sources, and in her husbands profile there is written this theory, but it is only a theory and as such it shouldn't be in our tree as a link between her and her husband. That is why I have started this discussion, to see if there are any sources backing up this theory and if not she shouldn't be connected to Skammel Thuesen Bild

There are plenty of users complaining about you guys that add fiction, fantasy and unproven theories to our tree, and wish that you moved your work over to MyHeritage where you can keep you own fictional trees for your own and not force them on users that prefer a correct and sourced tree.

"I et nummer af Pers. Hist. Tidsskr. skriver Sigvard Mahler Dam om slægten Bild, der efter sigende skulle stamme fra Skammel, der boede "Nør i Thy" vistnok på gården Norringtoft. Skammel foreslås gift med en kvinde af Kongeslægten, nemlig sandsynligvis en datter af Harald Kesjas søn modkongen Oluf Haraldsen.

En søn af Skammel var Oluf Skammelsen, der levede ca. 1200 og var far til marsken Hr. Harald Olufsen Marsk. Denne var efter alt at dømme en meget højtstående herre, og må næsten helt sikkert have tilhørt en gren af Kongeslægten."

https://www.dis-danmark.dk/forum/read.php?1,334132,334273

Takk Mikael. Vet du om Pers. Hist. Tidsskrift ligger online?

Fant den: http://370.dk/PhPGedView/media/Personalhistorisk_Tidsskrift_1993_-_...

Removed the first name Ragna, since there are no sources supporting that.

Private User kan du lese første avsnitt side 26 i Sigvard Mahler Dam sin artikkel, avsnittet starter med "Det er tænkeligt," og komme med dine tanker om hvor godt dette forholdet er bevist.

Jeg ser også at du har lagt inn slektstreet, Tavle 3, som bilde på hennes profil. Legg der merke til at ... Olufsdatter (modkonge Oluf Haraldsens datter) ikke står som gift under Skammel han bor sig nør i Thy, men i stedet står skrevet ved siden av, noe som viser at dette bare er å anse som en teori Sigvard legger fram.

Spørsmålet jeg vil du skal tenke på er om denne Olufsdatter skal være lenket til Skammel Thuesen Bild eller om hun bare skal nevnes i biografien som en teori og at denne lenken bør slettes. Hvor gode er bevisene for at teorien om at Skammel og en datter av Oluf Haraldsen var gift?

Jag tycker att det räcker att det står i om-rutan att det är en trovärdig teori av Sigvard Mahler Dam som ännu inte har bevisats.

Men om du vill kan du ju lägga till texten "spekulativ" eller något liknande i något lämpligt fält.

Prinsesse Ragna Olufsdatter, av Skåne
Figura su perfil en Geni como NN Olufafdater
Ragna Olufsdatter
Princesa de Skåne 1142 1180
Esposo
Stool Bild, a Norringtoft
https://www.myheritage.es/names/prinsesse_olufsdatter
http://www.flemzz.dk/webtrees/individual.php?pid=I5260&ged=flem...
https://www.stoltze-saltoft.dk/getperson.php?personID=I502060&t...
http://emma.hagbergs.net/getperson.php?personID=I501760&tree=tree1

Private User I don't understand your Spanish, please write in English.

The 4 links you have mentioned are all to private homepages where there are no sources for the information and therefore they are untrustworthy.

https://www.myheritage.es/names/ragna_bild%20%20til%20n%C3%B8rringtoft
it is not reliable
¿ No es confiable ?
I do not speak English, only Spanish
I use google translate
Gracias.

Juan, not reliable.

https://www.myheritage.es/names/ragna_bild%20%20til%20n%C3%B8rringtoft
Fuente de información confiable para millones de personas a nivel mundial
EspañoL

Árboles Familiares de MyHeritage
Prinsesse Ragna Bild, til Nørringtoft (nacida Olufsdatter), 1142 - 1180
Ragna Bild, til Nørringtoft (nacida Olufsdatter) nació en 1142, en lugar de nacimiento, de padres Oluf II Haraldsen y Ukendt Haraldsen.
Oluf nació en 1120.
Ragna se casó con Skammel Tuesen Bild.
Skammel nació en 1144, en Nordentoft, Tilsted, Danmark.
Ellos tuvieron 2 hijos: Oluf Skammelsen y otro hijo.
Ragna se casó con Ebbe Olufsen Glug.
Ebbe nació en 1140, en Bavelse Sogn, Tybjerg Herred, Præstø Amt, Danmark.
Ellos tuvieron un hijo: Oluf Ebbesen Glug.
Ragna falleció en 1180, a la edad de 38 años en lugar de fallecimiento.




De no ser confiable GENI NO DEBERIA SER PARTE DE MyHERITAGE

Tal como se ha publicado en: https://www.myheritage.es/names/ragna_bild%20%20til%20n%C3%B8rringtoft

"Muchas felicidades! soy un usuario activo y muy contento con este genial proyecto, tengo 8 meses trabajando en mi árbol genealógico con 769 registros y avanzado más atrás de lo que llegué a imaginar y todo esto no hubiera sido posible por tan potente e impresionante herramienta. Enhorabuena."
J. Garza, España

"Gracias Amigos! Me ha dado muy buen resultado el MyHeritage, he establecido contacto con algunos primos..."
A. Cuellar, España

Geni.com isn't a part of MyHeritage.com, they just compare information and it is up to the uers to find out if the information is correct or not. On MyHeritage are only the trees of the users of MyHeritage not unlike any other familytree you find on the internet.

There are as far as I know, no sources confirming the theory of Sigvard Mahler Dam that Skammel Thuesen Bild was married to a daughter of king Oluf Haraldsen. So what is written on MyHeritage is not true, it is just a theory without any proof.

Please, don't use familytrees on MyHeritage as sources for your genealogy, it will only make you trouble, because there are so many trees on MyHeritage that are not corrrect. Like the one you just quoted.

No entiendo la aptitud de aquellos que no aceptan que el ADN se comenzó a utilizar a fines del siglo pasado y principio del presente y todo lo anterior en materia de genealogía se realizaba mediante lecturas de textos ,registros de Iglesias Templos y todo aquello que pudiera ser útil para llevar un registro de las distintas familias como así también lo expresado por familiares al contar de sus antepasados aunque hubiesen nacido en otros países y emigraron trayendo con ellos toda su historia así se formó Geni con el trabajo de mucha gente y de muchas horas de estudio traduciendo manuscritos, libros ect
Hoy veo que todo esto no sirvió de nada para aquellos que dicen que esto no es una fuente confiable y cortan o descartan distintos perfiles porque lo pueden hacer ,todo según mi parecer de forma arbitraria.

Then show me a reliable source for Ragna.

Así que muéstrame una fuente confiable de Ragna. (Google translate)

"Then show me a reliable source for Ragna". Sigvard Mahler Dam just named her Olofsdotter, change it to N.N. Olofsdotter.

Ulf, it looks to me that you don't understand what Sigvart Mahler Dam has done. He has proposed a theory that he himself invented and published in PHT 1993:1. Sigvart Calls it a hypothesis here on this page: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sigvard-mahler-dam-01947439/?originalSu... just search for the word "hypotese".

So it doesn't help removing this persons first name if the person never existed. And by the way Mikael change the first name to NN two days ago, just read here: https://www.geni.com/discussions/192054?msg=1274589

So far, her existence is only a hypothesis worth mentioning in her biography, but not worth being connected in the familytree, it's far to vague to be shown as a link in our tree.

There is absolutely NOTHING to gain by cutting the link between NN Olufsdatter and Skammel. That would only make it harder for future genealogists to investigate the matter further.

The theory by Sigvart Mahler Dam makes perfect sense if you would bother to read the article in its entirety. Not every theory is a "fairytale", if so every scientist in the world is "just making things up".

A published article in a respected magazine (PHT in this case) should mean something.

You should focus your energy on correcting all the obvious errors here on Geni, just the other day I found a person "born 1625" who died 1840. Those things are purely fairytales and not founded in serious research. Surely you must see the difference between the two things, Remi?

The link between Olufsdatter (if she ever existed, it's only a theory of Sigvart) and Skammel has no proof. He makes his argument on descendants of Skammel being named Oluf and Harald, wich are very weak arguments since those names were very common in this period. Almost none have mentioned this hypothetical link in any other Danish publication as far as I can find, and just a few have mentioned it in the Danish forums. To me that says a lot. We are working on finding possible places in our ancestry to cut the links beween real historical persons and the persons mentioned in the sagas that is not believed to be historical persons. This Olufsdatter is obviously such a candidate sinmce she was invented in a theory in 1993, that is 850 years after she supposedly was born. Why haven't anybody mentioned her before? Why haven't the professional historians talked about this, before or after 1993? It's far from every article in PHT or the Norwegian equivalent NST that are correct.

We are focusing our energy on removing links between historical and non-historical persons in Scandinavia between the years 800 and 1300 with the goal that no profile on Geni living today should have a link to a non-historical person from the early saga-times, and this work has been ongoing for some time by us that know a little about the medeival times in Scandinavia.

Nothing to gain by cutting? Ofcourse there is. We will get a more correct and trustworthy tree which will make Geni not so laughable by the serious and professonal genealogists.

It is clear to me that you already decided to cut the link before you even started this discussion. Who died and made you the almighty king of Geni?

The idea of Geni is to build a ”World Tree”. So it should not come as a surprise that people in the World Tree are connected to each other in some way or another. But suddenly everyone is freaking out that people have common ancestors in medieval times.

It is completely insane that your focus is to remove all links to our long dead ancestors, no matter what the historians think. Nothing can be proven to 100 percent, sometimes you just have to settle with the most plausible explanation until a better explanation comes along.

If you want people to collaborate with each other you can’t decide all things on your own just because you are a ”curator”. That kind of attitude will be the death of Geni.com.

Thank you for your kind words. I see you belong to the group that likes to have fantasy, fiction and unproven theories as links in our tree, as your brother does. Too bad, I had good hopes and feelings for you.

If I had made a decision, I wouldn't have started this discussion. :-)

Noone is freaking out because people have common ancestors in the medeival times, except the ones that don't fancy unproven theories being cut to make the tree more reliable.

We are not trying to remove all links to our long dead ancestors, only to the ones that are untrusworthy and therefore not true, by using the sources we find about these persons. Most of these sources, when not being a primary source, are written by historians that know what they talk about, and they should ofcourse be listened to. Lack of sources also tell us very much about the trustworthyness of a persons info. What is insane is to have a tree with a lot of wishful thinking in it. That will make Geni.com look like a joke among the genealogists and historians. Some of them are already calling Geni.com for a genealogical virus spreading all kind of nonsense, and if that attitude spreads it will be the reason for the death of Geni.com, not us that want to make a reliable and as correct a tree as possible according to what sources we have. And the work we are doing, finding the places to cut the tree between the fictional/saga profiles and the historical profiles are sanctioned by the leadership of Geni.com, so it is going to happen no matter what you, your brother or anyone else fancying having Adam, Odin or Ragnar Lodbrok in your tree, think. And if you don't like the route Geni.com has pointed out that they want to go, maybe MyH is a better place for you, there you can have full control of your own tree, and let it go back to Odin if you like, without anybody interfering.

Well, back to finding out if there are more information about Oluf Haraldsen and his possible daughter that may or may not have existed and may or may not have been married to Skammel Thuesen Bild. So far we have only the article with the hypothesis from 1993, and nothing else to confirm her existence.

Have a good night, mine is almost over, only 1 1/2 hour left before I can go home from work.

Historians have debated for centuries which historical figures are real and who are fictional without coming to a conclusion. That's why they settled to call some kings for "legendary" or "semi-legendary". They can not prove that they existed and they can not prove that they didn't exist.

In my opinion it should be enough to add "Legendary" or "Semi-legendary" to each profile and explain in the About-section that there is no reliable proof that this person existed.

In a democracy people are allowed to express their opinions, but if you do so here you are labelled "crazy" and recommended to leave the site. What is the point to have a "discussion" if you're not allowed to discuss things?

I have added nearly 20 000 profiles on this site during my 8 years as a member, adding
a large number of reliable sources to most of those profiles. I am a valued member of this community and do my fair share as a contributor to Geni.

I'm not here to pick a fight, I just wanted to tell you who's responsible for the theory about NN Olufsdatter. We have different opinions about the plausibility of the theory, so let's wait and see what other members think about it.

Have a good day!

Ragna Olufsdatter (1142 - 1180) - Genealogy - Geni

https://www.geni.com/.../Ragna-Olufsdatter/60000000084492800...
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24 may. 2018 - Genealogy for Ragna Olufsdatter (1142 - 1180) family tree on Geni, with over 185 million profiles of ancestors and living relatives.

No NN como dice su perfil

https://www.stoltze-saltoft.dk/getperson.php?personID=I502060&t... El sitio está dirigido por The Next Generation of Genealogy Sitebuilding ©, v. 12.0.3, escrito por Darrin Lythgoe 2001-2019.
Actualizado por Susanne Stoltze Saltoft . | Reglamento de datos personales de la UE .
Prinsesse Ragna Olufsdatter von Skåne
http://krogsgaard.name/pafg428.htm#11884
https://gw.geneanet.org/erikudesidedk?n=bild+til+norringtoft&oc...
https://docplayer.me/29366096-Anene-til-helga-horne-f-haaland.html
http://susanne-stoltze-saltoft.dk/kendisser/gorm.html
https://www.myheritage.dk/family-3_3001131_176989861_176989861/bild...
https://www.myheritage.dk/family-3_3000888_176989861_176989861/oluf...
http://emma.hagbergs.net/descend.php?personID=I501760&tree=tree1
https://www.stoltze-saltoft.dk/descend.php?personID=I502060&tree=1
http://emma.hagbergs.net/suggest.php?enttype=F&ID=F500639&t...
http://www.toveogflemming.dk/tove/per06030.htm#0
http://udeside.dk/webtrees/individual.php?pid=I167&ged=tree1

Juan, thanks for all the links. I have found all of them and plenty more during the last couple of days. The same problem exist for everyone of these internet sites. They do not have any sources for their information. And therefore they are considered untrustworthy.

A more trustworthy site that mentions his sources are Finn Holbek's internet site and here is king Oluf II Haraldsen: https://finnholbek.dk/getperson.php?personID=I9445&tree=2 notice no daughter that is married to any Skammel. And here is Harald Marsk: https://finnholbek.dk/getperson.php?personID=I83575&tree=2 notice no parents and when moving down to his son Olaf: https://finnholbek.dk/getperson.php?personID=I83576&tree=2 the name of Olaf's and Cecilie's children are not the same as on Geni, nor is Olaf's firstname which is Ud on Geni: Oluf Haraldsen Bild, til Nordentoft The sourse for the information on Geni is DAA (Dansk Adels Aarbog) 1888, page 63, while the source on Finn Holbek's site is DAA 2009-2011, page 525-646 written by medeival historian Michael Kræmmer: efterslægtstavle for Skjalm Hvide. I think I trust this latest article over anything that has been written before and specially what has been written as long time ago as 1888.

I think somebody with access to this article in DAA 2009-2011 need to revise this whole part of the tree, because it looks like there are plenty of inconsistencies. Anette Guldager Boye do you know somebody that can read this article and make any necessary changes.

Remi, tu dices(Casi ninguno ha mencionado este enlace hipotético en ninguna otra publicación danesa, por lo que puedo encontrar, y solo unos pocos lo han mencionado en los foros daneses. Para mí eso dice mucho. Estamos trabajando para encontrar posibles lugares en nuestra ascendencia para cortar los vínculos entre las personas históricas reales y las personas mencionadas en las sagas que no se cree que sean personas históricas.) y todos estos enlaces la mayoría Danes dice lo contrario.
http://www.spinder.net/family/getperson.php?personID=I7231&tree...
http://www.ourtree.dk/web/familytree/ancestor.tree.php?ancid=158160
http://thenielsensite.dk/7857.htm
http://www.christentarp.dk/stam/nordentoft.pdf
http://www.ole-moustgaard.dk/Tjekkiske%20konge.pdf
http://www.fkrug.com/PhpGedView/individual.php?pid=I27571&ged=K...
http://www.flemzz.dk/webtrees/individual.php?pid=I5259&ged=flem...
hhttp://christentarp.dk/side19.htmlttp://www.toveogflemming.dk/tove/...
http://thenielsensite.dk/7854.htm
To be, or not to be, that is the question