Ireland - Prince Munster and Helgi

I forgot the link:

Mew of Leinster

У Одда от дочери ирландского короля были дочь Рагнхильд, а от Сильскисиф - сыновья Асмунд (назван в честь друга Одда) и Геррауд (названный в честь деда).

Odd Orvar "The Arrow" De Oklogsland from the daughter of the Irish king had the daughter of Ragnhild, and from Silskisif - the sons of Asmund (named after Odd's friend) and Gerraud (named after his grandfather).

Given that Ireland was a mess of tiny kingdoms, with no name for this Irish king trying to tie Odd's wife to a particular family seems wishful thinking.

I cut Olvor, an Irish princess from her father Domnall mac Muirchertach

(No Name) where else would you suggest a cut is in order?

Isn’t Odd Orvar legendary? We need to get him and his cohorts labeled, if so. But that would be one of the reasons for chronology issues. Some of the people in this line didn’t exist.

I can't really say where and how to cut. All the "saga"- relationships until (maybe) 900 are more or less fabricated. The fictional profiles in geni should be clearly labeled like "this person may never have existed and all relationships are ...." Find some good label.

After the labelling action - I don't think this would be an easy one - the worst parts of the sagas could be disconnected.

However - the pre-medivial geni-tree is not even a correct image of the sagas - it is not only Odd Örvar and his cohorts (hirds). Most of the saga trees seem to be a playground for fantastic queen-king-children stories.

The tales about Orvar and his "father" Grim are really unlikely (even if some persons and events might have existed/happened). I think that tales do not belong in a serious genealogic website.

I have compared with "wikitree". There are a lot of tales too. However they label the profiles:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Dagsdotter-2

"Biography

This is a legendary or fictional person. Therefore she can not have parents, spouses or children and she can not have real dates or events. The parents previously linked to this profile, Frodosson-1 and Anfantsryrdottir-1 have therefore been disconnected as well as her husband Alfreksson-1, Agnisson-2, The_Powerful-1 and child Agnason-2, Alreksson-36, Alriksson-1.

Her profile is being retained on WikiTree because she appears in many popular genealogies.

From Heimskringla saga/legend:

Dagreith (Dageid in Swedish, Norwegian and Danish) is mentioned in the Heimskringa saga (in the Ynglingasaga part) as the daughter of king Dag the Powerful (Swedish: konung Dag den mäktige, Norwegian: kong Dag den megtuge, Danish: kong Dag den Mægtige).

She in turn is the mother of possibly both the sons of spouse Alrek (son of Agni/Agne), named Yngvi (Inge) and Alf (Alv), at least she is spoken of as the mother of Alf (Alv). [1] [2]

Relationships between historical figures could have been simplified or even fabricated in the text to give the impression that succession remained within the same family. Precise chronology is also difficult to assess from the Sagas. The conclusion must be that the tight family network described in the Sagas is unlikely to be correct and that the relationships should be treated with considerable caution."

When wikitree is presenting a very doubtful tree like they label the profile:

"Research suggests that this person may never have existed. See the text for details"

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Domarsson-5

(open "descendants" with three times "queen" Skjalv Frostisdotter; two times to much)

I guess that you know the labels of wikitree.

I was surprised when I noticed that Curators produce saga-profiles like the following and almost all the others in this tree surrounding without a note that "the profile might never have existed." I suggest that curators should agree upon "profile-rules"

Olvor, an Irish princess

The Irish princess has a name in the sagas: Olvor with two "," below the o's.

"Chapter 21-24 in Orvar's saga: They are traveling two times to Ireland. On the first trip Asmundr gets killed; on the second Oddr receives from the king's daughter Olvor a shirt in which he could not become injured. He marries her and stays in Ireland for three years."

Well the worst part is not that the fictional profiles are included in the geni-tree without label, the worst part is that the tree is suggesting that all these Orvars and Anunds together with all their wifes, brothers, children and kohorts are related and some users seem to believe that Anund or whoever is their 38th grandfather and maybe related to the pharaos.

I moved Odd's "about me" into Russian. From Google Translate, it seems as if this profile may need detangling:
"Two researchers - the Danish Adolf Stender-Petersen in the book "Varangica" (1953) and the Russian Eugene Pchelov in the genealogical study of the dynasty (2001) - consider it possible to identify Oleg Veschego Russian chronicles with Odd Strela, the hero of the Norwegian-Icelandic sagas: "Orvar-Odd saga "," The Saga of the Herve, "" The Saga of Egil, "" The Saga of the Geisley, "and the" History of Norway "by Tormody Torfain."

(Tormod Torfeus was a 15th century cleric, who wrote the first serious history of Norway. He was an avid consumer of sagas, but is not an originator of them.)

We are all getting a crash course in comparative medieval literature!

I gave Odd an English "about me", just because I can't read Cyrillic.
I also updated the princess' name even though it is a public profile that could have been edited by anyone.

The goal of the creator of this portion of the tree seems to have been to link Oleg of Kiev to the Irish Kings, I have pointed out in a separate discussion that Oleg/Helgi is not considered a possible son of Oddr but rather that Oleg/Helgi has parallels to Oddr himself.
https://www.geni.com/discussions/185227?msg=1238954

You would not believe how many non Irish Genealogies attach themselves to the Irish tree. It is quite spectacular.

Would you please disconnect Dag Dagsson from Skjalv Frostisdotter. (relations are locked). This would make the clean-up of the Ynglingasaga much easier. I guess that we try to clean up the old sagas.

Dag "the Powerful" Dagsson

Skjalf Frostidotter, Queen of Uppsala

Chapter 19 in tacitus.nu (different chapter in English version) about king Agni "The Powerful" who was hanged in a tree by his wife Skjalv during the wedding night. After her revenge she row away with her kohorts - maybe to Finland but acc. to Ynglingasaga not to Dag to marry him.
Skjalf was never a Queen of Uppsala....maybe one day? She could not have been the mother of Agni's successors Alrik and Erik.
The Svears would not have waitet for babies to grow up to be their king.

We might as well disconnect her "children" - successors of the hanged Agni.

It is very questionable wether Odd Orvar had a son Helgi with Silkisif.

Odd Orvar "The Arrow" De Oklogsland

Silskisif "Silk Maid" De Kiev

They married very late in Odd-Orvars saga (chapter 40-44). After a trip where he would kill the king Alfr of Bjalkaland Odd-Orvar would get Alf'rs daughter as wife. Oddr kills Alfr, his wife Gyda and their son Vidgripr. He then marries Silskisif and becomes king of Hunaland. Later Oddr returns to Norway to become killed by a snake bite.

I cannot find anything about children of Oddr with Silskisif like Helgi in the saga.

Helgi / Oleg "The Prophetic" grão-duque de Kiev

I am not so fluent in Old Scandinavian languages and I think that not so many users master Slavic languages.
I have not found a translation of Odd-Orvar's saga in the internet so I tried with the Original. Somebody please would read the chapters 40-44 in Old Norse in order to find out if there is a son Helgi mentioned.
Why should Bjalkaland or Hunaland be part of the Ukraine (Kiew) ? Hunaland is a fable country - like Atlantis; nobody knows were it is located.

A mistake about Odd Orvar. Silskisif was the daughter of the king of Hunaland Herraudr and not of Alfr - Alfr was the king from Bjalkaland whom Oddr should kill in order to get Herraudr's daughter as wife.

The Dag / Agni error deserves its own thread - Jason Scott Wills needs to be consulted. Dag was Agni's father.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/heim/02ynglga.htm

Agni's predecessor was Dag "the wise" (see chapter 21 and 22). Agni was married with Skjalv Frostisdotter. Her father Frostis was killed by Agni and Skjalv abducted by Agni. After the burial feast for Frosti Skjalv took revenge, hanged Agni in a tree and rowed away with her men.

Alric and Erik were the predecessors of Agni - they killed each other with their horses bridle. (chapter 23).

In chapter 24 about Yngve and Alf comes the important part.

"Alf was a silent, harsh, unfriendly man, and sat at home in the land, and never went out on war expeditions. His mother was called Dageid, a daughter of King Dag the Great, from whom the Dagling family is descended. King Alf had a wife named
Bera, who was the most agreeable of women, very brisk and gay."

Dag the Great was also called/translated as Dag the "powerful". There is no relationship with Dag the Wise, Agni's far.

Summary; Dag the Wise followed by Agni (married with Skjalv) followed by Alric/Eric followed by Yngve and Alf. Alf mother was Dageid, daughter of king Dag the Great/Powerful. King Alf's wife is Bera. Dageid was Alric's wife.

Alf and Yngve killed each other because Bera preferred Alf's brother Yngve.

Skjalv was not married with Dag the Great (powerful) and should be disconnected from her.

Dag the Great("Powerful") and Skjalv divorced.

Great.

Good. Your correction about the two Dags were exactly what I was typing when Geni went down on me.

The Norwegian (antiquated) version of section 19 of Ynglingesoga that's linked in Agne's profile separates the events of Agne taking Skjalv as wife and the celebration of her father at which he was murdered. It does use the word "take as wife".

I've created a "mother of Agni's sons" profile to keep the tree straight.

Sorry that went over my head. Why do i need to be consulted im not curator of either profile

Thanks. I have marked several profiles with either a questionmark or "disconnect". The profiles are locked. Indeed geni was down several times today, I will collect the marked profiles tomorrow

Jason Scott Wills because you are listed in the changelog as the one who modified the relationships. If this wasn't just cleaning up after a merge, and you intended the results, we need to know why.

I've started a new discussion from Agni - let's move this there.

https://www.geni.com/discussions/185325