sudden major change in my tree

Willem Schalkz van der Merwe, SV/PROG was disconnected from his parents Schalk Willemsz van der Merwe
2018-07-07 10:46 AM by Sharon Doubell

Well, it's as simple as this, if anyone can't prove to 100% (or more ;-) that a line is true, then it will be cut off by some curator at some point, this is sometimes against the very policy that they have agreed to follow as a curator, but as long as they claim that they are doing their part of maintaining the world tree by cleaning up in it, then nobody seems to care regardless if it had been as a result from a discussion about the profile or not, (since some of the curator uses their limited knowledge on their own and acting upon whatever they can figure out).

There has been one recent discussion about him and his connections, you seem to have missed the train. If you got proof in any valid source, then you will have to fight for the re-connection, good luck with that!

Hi Martin Hardy,

First, I totally agree with you regarding the cutting but over time realised (as well) that sources are the key for that era, eg re South Africa not clear regarding naming conventions and "other complications" - a bit counter-intuitive but I do buy into that it opens avenues for research by cutting until proven.

Yes, unlikely to find those long gone sources without proper knowledge of where and how, and nowadays there are also prescribed orders of sources. I.e. citing research by another does not count as primary source (primary is the ideal...). Which makes it tough.

However, I can also see another problem with only having 500 ancestors... your tree is very incomplete on all recent ancestors except Van der Merwe. Why focus on a single line (in your case) when there are much more lines open for adding, and much easier to do from anywhere on this planet via available sources for research?

Surely if your more recent tree is complete for 10 generations on all lines, it is worth much more than a single speculative line going back to times long forgotten (imo meaningless), and completing a forest would yield +-2000 ancestors?

Regards
Jan

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.
I only mentioned that particular line, as it seems to lead to many others and i did not want to confuse the issue.
How does one find the particular manager please?
New to this kind of problem.

Have a great day.

Martin

Sorry about the frustration. I sympathise. Please comment on this Discussion designed to discuss exactly this: https://www.geni.com/discussions/183237?msg=1229018

I know the following is not going to be accepted
well by some curators, but I feel needs to said.
DNA results are interesting and do confirm
many family connections, other names appear
due to matches based on haplogroup. These
membership genealogy sites are to some extent
offering info, submitted by others, how much
documented info. this includes is to me
Questionable. I have found that my trees most
accurate info. has been from the LDS church
records, this could be because many off my
ancestors were Mormon. I believe, that curators
should have a lot more certainty about information
they provide on a persons ancestors tree before
submitting it to their membership, it is disheartening
to spend hundreds of hours and then be told...
oops we just wiped it all out because accurate
documentation. never existed in the first place.
A single question on where’s the documentation
causes the curator to fold the tree ..????
information

Sharon Lee Doubell C 4/7/2018 at 7:40 PM
Shirley - geni is 'us' - there is nobody to blame as Geni.

Shirley Norris PRO5/7/2018 at 12:20 AM
Geni is the organization I subscribe to, so the information that I collect from ther data falls under itheir name (umbrella). as do those that work for the organization. I am not makeing this personal. But, cousin your reply says to me that most of the info. Is summation and probably not based on documentation once it gets beyond the original settler....disheartening.

Bjørn P. Brox C
5/7/2018 at 6:09 AM
Geni as an organization has not added a singe bit of data into the system, - the users like you and me have, so if you find errors it is the responsible users you have to blame or contact.

Sharon Lee Doubell C
5/7/2018 at 9:35 AM
Danielle - RE "This last one has become more important recently to the curators on Geni." - True - but not that it wasn't important to us before - just that it was virtually impossible to police it happening. Now that we have been given a Relationship Locking tool we can remove the bogus or unproved links. We, like you and Shirley, want the tree to be historically sound - hence being prepared to have the battles that are now happening around unsourced profiles with the people who are invested in them staying. For the first time, it's worth doing because we know it won't have to happen over and over. It's improving the tree at a rapid pace :-)

PS - Shirley, the Curators are volunteers - so we don't work for Geni either :-)
Crowd-sourcing data gives a tree breadth very quickly - You will have acquired links and access to families that you couldn't have got without 'everyone' pooling their own info and resources and time. The depth of Sources bit takes longer to overlay. We're all trying to do it together. Geni is the platform being paid for - we are the data on the tree.

Daniel Jacobus Botes C
5/7/2018 at 3:07 PM
Geni is a vehicle users have selected to carry their precious information - as best as they believe it to be. Just to find out later other users have more accurate or complementary information.

Have I not entered my scanty "incorrect" info 10 years ago, I would not have found descendants in that missing family line also contributing the family anecdotes from the visibility they had. Together we, as users have now found the "accurate" version through our vehicle GENI.

Would like to know of other vehicles which would have provided the "correct" answer at date of entering the information. Undoubtedly those vehicles would be completely dependant on their volunteers (members) like Geni to accomplish that.

Thanks, Sharon for taking the lead on this specific one, and rest assured that there might be many more!

Danielle le Marais PRO
5/7/2018 at 5:23 PM
Geni is the only site that does seem to be demanding these proofs..On so many other ancestry sites you will see the same obviously incorrect information repeated over & over, & copied by others over & over..I feel very thankful that the first genealogy site I chose to go on was Geni..Having a South African mother, & with so many from SA on here, it has been the best place to go for starting my tree..And getting back quite far with it too..Just stuck on a few relatives, whose origins stubbornly remain elusive!

Shirley, I have read your comments. Geni is managed by basic unpaid users, paid subscribers with a Pro badge, and curators. All members join with one common goal. To help build one World Tree that is as accurate as possible. If a basic unpaid member has evidence that the vd Merwe line should be reconnected to the European line then it is the Geni curator's duty to reinstate the connection.

Some lineages are full of mistakes and therefore require constant checking and scrutiny.

As a rule, South African lineages can be sourced with documentation up to a point. This point is usually when settlers left Europe.

Some South African lineages have maintained a quasi-evidence-based approach going back to Europe. These legends and genealogical mythologies will sooner or later have to be tested, checked and evaluated.

In the case of a well established story with no hard evidence, genealogists and researchers stop persuing the leads because they assume somebody has already confirmed the legend.

So, by cutting a link... the legend is put aside temporarily for researchers to persue all possible leads and allows for new impetus that may help improve the accuracy of the South African tree.

Martin Hardy Ellis, I have queried the MH DNA upload that we've been waiting for. I'll let you know what reply I get.

Thanks for all the input and dedicated work guys,
look forward to what transpires.
have a great day.
Martin

Incidentally Alex,
my dna from My Heritage:

Europe
99.1%
North and West Europe
78.3%
Irish, Scottish, and Welsh
42.6%
Scandinavian
35.7%
South Europe
16.4%
Iberian
9.3%
Greek
5.9%
Italian
1.2%
Ashkenazi Jewish
4.4%
Ashkenazi Jewish
4.4%
America
0.9%
Native American
0.9%
Native American
0.9%

As you can see i have greek dna.
You are in fact my 7th cousin, but all those connections seem to be cut, including much else.
I think because they go back to ancient lineages.
These have all vanished like the mists of time, or possibly banished by design.
What? This all seems to rhyme.

Anyway, seems there os an error somewhere.
Losing over 10,000 ancestors really hurts.
Any thoughts about this please?

Take care newly found cousin.
Martin

Well Jan,
Seems we too are 5th cousins.
This is becoming quite a family affair.
Cheers for now
Martin

Hi Sharon,

your comment:

"I have queried the MH DNA upload that we've been waiting for. I'll let you know what reply"

Any further progress?

take care,
Martin

Hello Sharon,
will this help sort out the cut connection?

https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/family-tree-wilferd-duckitt/I600...

https://www.myheritage.com/person-1002965_195950071_195950071/wille...

regards

Martin

Hi Martin. They don't show the documentation proof that we're missing.

On getting your DNA onto geni. Users have had success with uploading their MH raw data to ftDNA, and then linking it with Geni.

Hi again Sharon,
what is required as proof positive please.

I will try the dna uploading as suggested.

Thanks as always.

M

Documents :-)

Sharon, have uploaded my dna to Geni as you guided me.
Thanks again

Well done :-)

Hello Sharon,
How are you doing?
I am really frustrated.
I don't connect with many direct ancestors (not including the Van der merwe issue)
For instance, I have a direct line through my mothers family to Kolbe to downing to Howard to this guy - Earl John "John De Vere 15th Earl of Oxford" Vere
Says You areconnected, but no path found.
this keeps happening.
Something has been cut which has denuded my site.
I looked at our connections cousin, via Johannes David Griesel, SV/PROG, my fifth great grandfather and many of your ancestors should also reflect for me???
Cant see them now, but did last year?
If you get a chance please see if with your expertise you could correct this.
I am flummoxed and this is not satisfying any longer.
Thanks and take care

Martin, I'll spend the morning sorting out the tree conflicts on your line - these may be causing a block.

You need to post the links to the profiles you KNOW you should cnnect with, so we can 'walk' the line one profile at a time.

Remember that once you're in the one world tree Geni will tend to tell you that you should link to all other profiles in the world tree (one day), but if it can't find a path now then it is likely that you have no direct paper trail right now.

I've reslved conflicts where I can, and cntacted managers / started Discussions where I can't.
There are multiple problems with this profile Mary Downing that is the top end of your Kolbe > Downing > Heard line - but whichever father I choose, the line still stops there - and doesn't go to Howard.

William Howard is my 4th gr grandfather, but the line I get to you isn't direct: Martin Hardy Ellis is William Howard, SV/PROG's grandson's wife's sister's husband's niece's husband's first cousin twice removed.
William Howard, SV/PROG
→ Emily Howard Jones, b5
his daughter → Henry Howard Jones
her son → Emily Ann Daniell Jones, b7
his wife → Anna Frances Daniell Hopley, b5
her sister → Richard Rodney Bligh Hopley, II
her husband → William Musgrove Hopley
his brother → Maria Aletta Hopley Barry
his daughter → George Augustus Barry
her husband → Margaretha Wilhelmina Elizabeth Kolbe Barry, b3
his mother → John Gherson Eliezer Kolbe, b1
her brother → Magdalena Jacoba Kolbe
his daughter → Gwendoline Davies Ellis
her daughter → Martin Hardy Ellis
her son

Your own MH line doesn't connect them either: https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-1-377528971-1-502094/nic...

Regarding Johannes David Griesel, SV/PROG - your 5th and my 6th gr grandfather - we don't have any info for his parents.

The shortest line between you and I is
Martin Hardy Ellis is your 6th cousin once removed.
You
→ Dion Andre Doubell
your father → Johanna Elizabeth Botha Doubell
his mother → Hesther Jacoba Maria Theron Botha
her mother → Johanna Elizabeth Weidemann
her mother → Elizabeth Geertruida Lubbe, d9e2
her mother → Carel Johannes Lubbe, b12c3d9
her father → Willem Lubbe, b12c3
his father → Andries Lubbe, b12c1
his brother → Magdalena Jacoba Lubbe van der Merwe, b12c1d5
his daughter → Vldkt. Willem Johannes van der Merwe, b2c13d2e3f5
her son → Anna Jacoba van der Merwe
his daughter → Magdalena Jacoba Kolbe
her daughter → Gwendoline Davies Ellis
her daughter → Martin Hardy Ellis
her son

Regarding John de Vere, 15th Earl of Oxford - I have a roundabout cousin connection, via the Howard line:

John de Vere, 15th Earl of Oxford is your 6th cousin 15 times removed.
You
→ Dion Andre Doubell
your father → Joel Michael Doubell
his father → Mary Anne Smuts Doubell
his mother → Mary Ann Jones Smuts
her mother → Emily Howard Jones, b5
her mother → William Howard, SV/PROG
her father → William Howard
his father → Abraham Howard, Sr.
his father → John Howard
his father → Thomas Hoard
his father → Edmund Hoard, III
his father → Edward Hord, II
his father → Edmund Hord Hoord, I
his father → Alan Hoorde,
his father → John Hord, of Bridgenorth
his father → Joyce Stapleton
his mother → Sir John Stapleton
her father → Cecily Bardolf Stapleton
his mother → Sir William Bardolf, 4th Lord Bardolph of Wormgay
her father → Sir John Bardolf, 3rd Baron Wormegay
his father → Agnes de Grandison Bardolph
his mother → Catherine de Grandison de Montagu, Countess of Salisbury
her sister → Sibyl de Montague
her daughter → Philippa FitzAlan, heiress of Chipping Norton
her daughter → Alice Sergeaux de Vere
her daughter → Robert de Vere
her son → John de Vere
his son → John de Vere, 15th Earl of Oxford
his son

but I can't find a connection to you.

That being said, you have a remarkably well filled out tree - with many lines back to the 1600s, and a couple even as far as the 1300s - I'm really not seeing a denuded tree?

thanks so much for the hard work, much appreciated. By denuded i refer to what is was a year back when it went way back.
I will see if i can find connections and clues.
be in touch soon.
have a great day.

This is the line from My heritage Sharon.

John's relation to you: Direct ancestor (17 generations)
You

Gwendoline Ellis (born Davies)
your mother
Magdalena Jacoba Davies (born Kolbe)
her mother
John Gherson Eliezer Eliezar "John Gersom Eliezer KOLBE" Kolbe, b1, b1
her father
Margaret Elizabeth Georgina "Margaret Georgina Elizabeth" Kolbe, SM/PROG (born Downing)
his mother
John Paul Downing
her father
Thomas Downing
his father
Edward Downing
his father
William Downing
his father
John Downing
his father
Frances Downing (born Howard)
his mother
William Howard, Sir
her father
Philip Howard, Kt.
his father
William Howard
his father
Thomas "4th Duke of Norfolk" Howard, 4th Duke of Norfolk
his father
Frances Howard (born De Vere)
his mother
Earl John "John De Vere 15th Earl of Oxford" Vere, 15th (De Vere)
her father
John Vere (De Vere)

;);)

here is another Sharon.

Henry (The Shepard, Lord Henry de Clifford, 10th Lord of Clifford, Baron Clifford) Lord Vescy?'s relation to you: Direct ancestor (17 generations)
You

Gwendoline Ellis (born Davies)
your mother
Magdalena Jacoba Davies (born Kolbe)
her mother
John Gherson Eliezer Eliezar "John Gersom Eliezer KOLBE" Kolbe, b1, b1
her father
Margaret Elizabeth Georgina "Margaret Georgina Elizabeth" Kolbe, SM/PROG (born Downing)
his mother
John Paul Downing
her father
Thomas Downing
his father
Edward Downing
his father
William Downing
his father
John Downing
his father
Frances Downing (born Howard)
his mother
Mary Howard (born Eure)
her mother
William Eure
her father
Ralph, 3rd Baron of Eure, Eure
his father
William Eure, 2nd Baron Eure
his father
Margery Bowes Eure (born Bowes)
his mother
Elizabeth Bowes (born Clifford)
her mother
Henry (The Shepard, Lord Henry de Clifford, 10th Lord of Clifford, Baron Clifford) Lord Vescy? DeClifford, 10th Baron Clifford
her father