Richard 'of London' Carpenter - Notes on the family from CE file

1. John or Jean Carpenter Le-85 was born about 1303 in De Grand Pont, Du Nord, France. He died after 1345 in Dilwyne, Herefordshire, England. He was buried in of, Gloucestershire, England. The parent relationship has been challenged. He had other parents.

A JOHN CARPENTER was a member of the English Parliament in 1323 for the borough of Leskard in Cornwall, as was 2 years afterwards a Stephen Carpenter for Crediton in the county of Devon (ie in 1325). A Henry Carpenter served in 1418, for the town of Derby. Per Playfairs British Antiquities, London 1810.
The town of Leskard was a charter town settled by Normans. ***
Earliest known record of our Carpenter line in England. This per the 1898
CARPENTER MEMORIAL BOOK AND GENEALOGICAL & FAMILY HISTORY OF WESTERN NEW YORK. LEWIS 1912. PAGE 1252 & 1317. Of Gloustershire per above. BIRTH: 1303/1305. DEATH: aft 1345.

***
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/documentxsl.asp?com=1&i=8&nbKe...
Devon Record Office: Shelley of Shobrooke [Z1/1/1 - Z1/16/39]
The contents of this catalogue are the copyright of Devon Record Office
Rights in the Access to Archives database are the property of the Crown, © 2001-2006
SHELLEY OF SHOBROOKE
Catalogue Ref. Z1
Creator(s):
Shelley family of Shobrooke Park, Crediton, Devon
FILE [no title] - ref. Z1/10/8 - date: 9 May 1316 9 Edward II
[from Scope and Content] Witnesses: Henry de Bokerel, Peter de Trobrigge, John de la More, William de Holewill, John Carpenter, John de Donscombe, and William de Bynesele.
FILE [no title] - ref. Z1/10/14 - date: 23 May 1321 14 Edward II
[from Scope and Content] Witnesses: John called the Carpenter, John de Cristenestouwe, John de Posbury, John de la More, Peter de Trobrigg, John de Donescumbe, John de Ayleston.
John Carpenter, Born in Dilwyne, Hereford, England per Ancesteral File.
Bap and end 20 and 26 Oct 1966. Same person as Jean Carpentier in the IGI.
Jean Carpentier - Film #: 170411, Page #: 789, Ordinance #: 30086.

PARENTS:
Maurice as the father has come into increasing question. Some of the reasons range from Maurice is a construct indivdual to fill the gap to that he is not of De Grand Pont area. Further work is needed to Siger le Carpentier b. about 1219.
ALTERNATE PARENT: of Jean LE CARPENTIER Sex: M who was born Abt. 1305 De Grand Pont, Du, Nord, France.
Father: Jehan LE CARPENTIER b. abt 1276
Mother: Mehant DE BAILLEUL
Film Number: 170458
Page Number: 63
Reference Number: 1746.
ALTERNATE GRANDPARENT: of Jean LE CARPENTIER b. abt 1305.
Jehan LE CARPENTIER - b. abt 1250 of Siger (common relative).
Gender: M Birth: Abt. 1250 Lord Of Daniel Et Avesnes Les Aubert, Du Nord, France.
Film Number: 170411
Page Number: 789
Reference Number: 30084.

MISC: Additional information supplied by Raymond George Carpenter, American Genealogist for the American Family. His sources referenced are: "English Genealogist Harry F. Rogers, Bunise's various 19th century works; "Life of Lord George Carpenter" printed 1736; Play fair's Family Antiquities; and the Davis and Owen Perrage; Will of the Town Clerk of London." John Carpenter was a Norman whose ancestors had served in three Crusades, as indicated by the three crosslets in the Carpenter coat of arms.
The Carpenter family of 1300 AD were seated in Hereford, Cornwall, Gloucester, Wiltshire and
Devonshire. They were descendants of the De Melun family of Melun, Seine et Oise, France.

MISC: Was this the John Le Charpentier who caused the death of Henry le Porte and was pardoned?

HISTORIC NOTE:
King Edward the First ruled in England during this time and had expanded the
meetings of leading nobles and church leaders to include Knights from the
shires, other church leaders and represenatives from the towns. The first
Model Parliament in 1295 set the pattern for future meetings and led to, in
1297, Edward agreeing that Parliment had the right to approve or disapprove
taxes proposed by the King.
John Carpenter became a member of the English Parliment in 1323, being the
eldest son of Maurice in England.
We can only suppose that Maurice Carpentier, by having his two eldest sons in
the English and French goverments, did well financially. John, Maurice's son,
was well educated and wealthy for their day as were his descendants.
This indicates access to or in nobility.

John married (MRIN:86) Jeanne de Tabarie-4677 daughter of Philippe Bethune Lord of Tabarie-65434 and Florence de Tabarie-65435 (MRIN:1974) about 1333 in ,, England. Jeanne was born about 1310 in Near, Cambrai, Nord, France. She died in of, Dilwyne, Herefordshire, England.

AFN CQ33-N2 (B. 1313) & AFN 8MJ2-DK (B. ABT 1305 with Temple work) apparently are the same person.
BIRTH: abt 1305/1313. About 1310 as best guess.
DEATH: Submitted by Paul DROUBAY.
Source Information: Film Number: 183497 Page Number: 788 Reference Number: 28796.

John and Jeanne had the following children:

2 M i. John Carpenter-29651 was born about 1334 in of, London, Middlesex, England. He was christened in of, Grand Pont, Du Nord, France. He was buried in Dilwyne, Herefordshire, England.

Possible son, likely but not confirmed. Maybe the son of Renaud or Richard
Le Carpentier the brother of John or Jean.
There may have been two sons named John in this family. See below.
E:MAIL: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey.com>
My data on John Carpenter also clearly stipulated that Sir John Carpenter
had a father John. Does this mean the 1303 John and the 1323 John were
father and son?
The revealation that the 1323 John had himself two John sons reminded me of a document I found that might be them. It is somewhat entertaining. From the Patent Rolls for May 6, 1360 at Woodstock.
"On complaint by John by John, abbot of Gerondon, that_.John le Carpenter
and John his brother, William Smyth of Gerondon and others, broke his close,
gates, chests, doors and windows of his house at Gerondon co. Leicester,
imprisoned him, carried away his goods and fished in his stews there and
carried away fish."
Sincerely,
Bruce E. Carpenter

John married (MRIN:12450) Unknown .

3 M ii. Richard or Renaud Carpenter-86 was born about 1335/1337 in of, Grand Pont, Cambrai, Nord, France. He was christened about 1335/1337 in of, London, Middlesex, England. He was buried in St.Martin Church, Outwich, London, England.

Note:
Richard & Christina were buried at The CHURCH OF ST. MARTIN, Ooutwich Bishop Gate St., London, England. Buried under a pew.
Per Bruce E. Carpenter: Per an Encyclopaedia of London the Church of St. Martin Outwich burned down and was rebuilt in 1727, then "In 1874 the church was demolished" (p. 95). Some records claim he was a Goldsmith (Chaundeler) by trade, however he was most likely a broker or middleman. See MISC: below.
He possessed wealth for his day.

DEATH: 1395 buried in St.Martin Church, Outwich, London, England.
If he died in 1395 then who is this Richard Carpenter in 1408?
Folio lxx.Exon'acio Rog'i Warde civis et scissoris London'.
31 Aug., 9 Henry IV. [A. D. 1408], Roger Warde, tailor, discharged by William
Staundone, the Mayor, and Aldermen from serving on juries, &c., owing to increasing old age.
Exon'acio Ric'i Carpenter civis et talughchaundler.
11 Oct., 10 Henry IV. [A. D. 1408], Richard Carpenter, "talughchaundeler, " similarly discharged for like cause.
From: 'Folios lxi - lxx: Dec 1406 - ', Calendar of letter-books of the city of London: I: 1400-1422 (1909), pp. 55-67. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=33679 Date accessed: 22 April 2009.
AND (from the MISC: section below - Close Rolls for Henry lV in 1412.
"Memorandum of a mainprise body for body, made in chancery in November thisyear by John Bulloke `skynner',John Ledys `cordwaner', both of London, Richard Carpenter of `Fleetsreet' ...
AND Custodia Isabelle filie Joh'is Pays quondam civis et Tonsor' London'.
27 Sept., 11 Henry IV. [A.D. 1410], a sum of money bequeathed by her uncle Master Thomas Pays, clerk, to Isabella, daughter of John Pays, late shearman, committed by Richard Merlawe, the Mayor, and John Proffyt, the Chamberlain, to Alice, mother of the said Isabella, in trust. Sureties, viz., John Norman, goldsmith, and Richard Carpenter, "chaundeler."
Afterwards, viz., on the 10th June, 4 Henry V. [A.D. 1416], came Thomas [sic], who had married the said Isabella, and acknowledged satisfaction.

From: 'Folios xci b - ci: March 1409-10', Calendar of letter-books of the city of London: I: 1400-1422 (1909), pp. 83-90. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=33682 Date accessed: 22 April 2009.

BOOK: "A GENEALOGICAL HISTORY OF THE REHOBOTH BRANCH OF THE CARPENTER FAMILY." BY Amos Bugbee CARPENTER in 1898, aka "THE CARPENTER MEMORIAL." SEE also: "GENEALOGICAL & FAMILY HISTORY OF WESTERN NEW YORK." LEWIS 1912. PAGE
1252 & 1317. At least two sons per the above records.

AF has a third son "RICHARD" listed. However this may be in error since a
Robert Carpenter has a son named Richard in the same time period.

Additional information supplied by Raymond George Carpenter, American
Genealogist for the American Family. His sources referenced are: "English
Genealogist Harry F. Rogers, Bunise's various 19th century works; "Life of
Lord George Carpenter" printed 1736; Play fair's Family Antiquities; and the
Davis and Owen Perrage; Will of the Town Clerk of London."

BIRTH: We know Richard was "of London." But he was probably born in France.
This following data fits and may be correct.
Renaud LE CARPENTIER Birth: Abt. 1337 Grand Pont, Cambrai, Du, Nord, France.
Father: Jean LE CARPENTIER.
Mother: Jeanne TABARIE.
REF: Film Number: 170458 Page Number: 70 Reference Number: 1934.

SEE: "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" By A. E. Douglas-Smith, 2nd Edition, 1965, Oxford. The City of London School for the Poor was endowed by this Richard'syounger son, named John or John the younger. On page 2 of the above, it liststhat this "Richard was a chandler living in Billiter Lane in 1381.
It also mentions on page 3, that a son named Robert Carpenter, "of whom
nothing is known except that he had a son (named) Richard and two daughters (named) Joan and Katherine." This is known by John the younger's will.
Other children may have been buried in the graveyard of the Church of St.
Martin.
The rolls of Parliment of the fifth Richard II, King of England, contains
pardons where several Carpenters are noted being excepted from benefits.
One is a Richard Carpenter of Billiter Lane in London.

MISC: This quote appears in the Close Rolls for Henry lV in 1412.
"Memorandum of a mainprise body for body, made in chancery in November this year by John Bulloke `skynner',
John Ledys `cordwaner', both of London, Richard Carpenter of `Fleetsreet',
John Apulton `taillour', John Stone Barbour', John Fynche `Chaundeler', John
Parker `armorer' and John Wolfhart `habirdasher' to have Nicholas Passyn
`goldsmith' there from day to day until the court is dismissed."
This quotation involves money that a goldsmith owed to the long
list of individuals. Goldsmiths were the bankers of their days. People with
cash assets turned their money over to the goldsmiths before it was turned
in deeded assets like land etc. All the above people belonged to trade
guilds with the exception of Richard Carpenter who was of a profession above
theirs and not designated, as was the custom in official documents. Richard
had money to turn over to a goldsmith, yet he was not a tradesman. The other
people in the document were probably not representing themselves, but rather
they were representing their guild or trade groups. In other words
John Parker `armorer' had given armorer trade association money to Mr.
Passyn the goldsmith for his safe keeping. Likewise Richard Carpenter could
very well have been representing a group of people, or corporate interest,
in this legal proceeding.
Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter 7-11-99.

Dear Bruce,
When I compile data, I sometimes don't check definitions. You are right that
chaundler does not mean goldsmith. This was an error on my part. Having
discusions and questions posed helps put the puzzle together.
Per Webster's New Universal UNABRIDGED Dictionary (based on the Random House
Dictionary of the English language 1996 by Barnes & Noble);
There are three definitions for the word Chandler (page 344) or Chaundelier ...
The most common TODAY; "1) a person who makes or sells candles and sometimes other items of tallow or wax, as soap." (I.E. related to candles and their holders)
A common definition used in the early 1700's and into the early 1800s;
"2) a dealer or trader in supplies, provisions, etc. of a specialized type: a
ship chandler."
The more obscure definition; "3) a retailer of provisions, groceries, etc."
Word Root history
"[1275-1325; ME chandeler candlestick, maker or seller of candles < AF, OF
chandelier, lit., some one or something connected with candles, equiv. to
chandelle CANDLE + -ier -IER2]"
Since earlier works used the term in the definition of their times and local
and we should look at the sources of data. Examples: "Bunise's various 19th
century works; "Life of Lord George Carpenter" printed 1736; Play fair's Family
Antiquities."
Logically, since the sources with in the 1700's into the 1800's we should use
the definition used AT THAT TIME AND LOCAL. The definition of number two above would fit.
"2) a dealer or trader in supplies, provisions, etc. of a specialized type: a
ship chandler."
Since Richard Carpenter was close to power because of wealth and had access (in the mid to late 1300s) in someway (due to nobility for example) to the King's Court, it is reasonable to assume that he was a trader (or broker in today's terms) in supplies or provisions.
Fleet Street today in central London, England is the location of many newspaper offices. In the 1700's it was an area of Brokerages, as it had been for several hundred years. A Broker (from 1350-1400 ME broco(u)r)) in the 1700's was a middleman dealing with high end merchandise such as gold. (I can see how the relationship was formed between Chaundler and gold)
Fleet Street in 1375-1425 derises its name from the ME Flete Strete, after a
nearby stream.
Thus in your last E-message where you quoted "the Close Rolls for Henry lV in 1412.
"Memorandum of a mainprise body for body, made in chancery in November this year by John Bulloke `skynner',
John Ledys `cordwaner', both of London, Richard Carpenter of `Fleetsreet' ..."

Apparently by 1412 "of Fleetstreet" meant he represented someone or some group (like himself or some brokers). Since Fleet Street was known as a brokerage area from the late 1300's to the early 1900's, this makes sense.
What is even more amazing is that the Richard Carpenter (who married Christina) in question died in 1395 and was buried in St.Martin
Church,Outwich,London,England.
None of Richard Carpenters known children is named Richard. His oldest son, John the elder inheritted his father's wealth (1395) and later (in 1441) his
younger brother's wealth (he was John the younger - The Noted Town Clerk of
London).

Bruce also supplied the following data that MAY apply to Richard's family:
The following is Calendar of Close Rolls entry for May 16, 1393:
"John Carpenter of Lavenham `draper' the elder, John Carpenter of Lavenham
`draper' the younger and Thomas Corby of Lavenham `fuller' to Richard Grace
citizen of London and Thomas his son. Recognisance for 20 L. to be levied
etc. in Suffolk. Defeasance thereof, upon condition that they pay 10
marks on each of the days named."
In a December 7, 139l entry:
"Memorandum of a mainprise under a pain of 100 L., made in chancery 6
December this year by Thomas atte Stone of Haddeley, Richard Clerke of
Kersey, John Dyster, Robert Berte, both of Kersey, Robert atte Mede of Ylle,
John Huberd, William Page, both of Ylle, Robert Barewe of Bildeston and
Robert Carpenter of Lavenham, for themselves and each for other under the
same pain, that they shall do or procure no hurt or harm to Richard Walton
of Bishops Lenne, and shall make no unlawful assemblies which tend to
disturbance of the people or breach of the peace."
Lavenham is about half way between Norwich and London.
On October 26, 1389 an entry appears with a John Carpenter as a witness.
"John son of Michael de Bures to Thomas de Swynbourne knight, William
Skrene, John Conors, Rodger Cavendyssh, William rule and Robert Risby, and to the heirs and assigns of Robert Risby. Charter with warranty of all his
lands, rents and services in Lavenham, Cokefeld, Preston and Thorpmurieux,
with wards, marriages etc. thereto belonging. Witnesses: John Rocwode,
Lawrence Porterose, Thomas atte Tye, Alan Wellynge, Peter Everard, Robert
Cooke, John Carpenter. Dated Lavenham, Tuesday after St. Hilary 13 Richard
ll."

NAME: Children names of John the elder and John the younger may be the naming of children Jean and Jehan. Both Jean and Jehan are forms of John in English.
Current American names would be Jon and John.

E-MAIL: Continued from Bruce on 18 Mar 2000:
While I researched late 1300s Carpenter history, my library had a key volume
still at the bookbindery. When the book was returned to the stacks it proved
to contain a crucial piece of Carpenter family history concerning Richard
Carpenter the father of John Carpenter the Town Clerk. Previously I had
found documents connecting Richard to Lancaster politics in the 1390s. He
was found with cloth merchants in the cloth-producing town of Chipping
Camden in Gloucestershire. Chipping Camden was a cloth-producing town of
major importance at that time. His eldest sons were identified as mercers in
another well-known cloth-producing town of Lavenham. The whole family was
obviously in political trouble.
Previous to these events I had found documents that connected Richard to
land cases in Hertfordshire, all of which he seemed to have a financial
interest. The document I have just found in the unread volume of Fine Rolls
sheds much light on all the above events and does much to clarify the life
of Richard Carpenter. (From Fine Rolls, 2 Richard II, June 30, 1378.)
"Commitment to John de Newenton, `chivaler,' -by mainprise of Nicholas Adam,
Walter atte Melle, John Raven and Master Richard Carpenter of the county of
Hertford, Nicholas Westerdale of the county of Bedford, and Richard Brok of
London,-of the keeping of the manor of Hycche, co. Hertford, which is in the
king's hand by the forfeiture of Alice Perers, to hold the same from Easter
last for ten years, rendering 100 marks yearly at the Exchequer by equal
portions at Michaelmas and Easter, maintaining the houses and buildings
pertaining to the manor, and supporting all charges incimbent thereon. By
bill of the treasurer."
This document is a fabulous one. It marks the beginning of the Carpenter
connection to the House of Lancaster that continued to John the Town Clerk
and Bishop John Carpenter. In 1378 John of Gaunt the Duke of Lancaster
controlled England and its youthful king. In 1378 when important land
escheated into the royal hands it really went into the hands of the Duke of
Lancaster. Here we can see political favors being repaid by lucrative rights
to an entire estate. Richard Carpenter and friends had to pay a fee to the
crown and subsequently kept the remaining profits for themselves. Nearly all
the individuals named with Richard Carpenter can be identified as connected
to the royal household.
We must assume such a connection for Richard Carpenter himself. Richard's
title of `master' is most intriguing. `Master'
suggests Richard was eminent in a specific field or trade. As with the many
other Carpenters we have seen, who provided financial support to the ruling
circle, Richard Carpenter must be added to the list. Lastly, in 1378 Richard
's main abode was located somewhere in Hertfordshire, which was directly
adjacent to London and a favorite place for the county homes of the rich and
powerful connected to London. The Nicholas Adams for example is listed as a
resident of Hertfordshire, but is also listed as the king's serjeant-at-arms
as well as surveyor of a tax in Cambridgeshire. Hertfordshire was where Adam had most of his land. In 1378 Richard Carpenter must have been still a young man. He is seen here as fully established in life, and when considering his other land holdings, a man of great wealth. Surely Richard Carpenter was the inheritor of significant wealth and family influence.
Bruce Carpenter

MISC:
From: "Adam McLean" <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
To: <jrcrin001@cox.net>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 7:26 AM
Subject: 15th Century - Richard Carpenter
> Dear John R. Carpenter ,
>
> I found your excellent web site when researching a 15th century
> alchemist, Richard Carpenter, whose verses are found in the
> Bodleian Library in Oxford, and in the British Library.
>
> Richard Carpenter is supposed by Elias Ashmole to have been
> the brother or a close relative of John Carpenter the
> Bishop of Worcester between 1443 and 1476.
>
> Do you have any information on this Richard Carpenter ?
>
> I would be most grateful for any leads.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Adam McLean
> ----------------------
> E Mail : alchemy@dial.pipex.com
> Web site: http://www.levity.com/alchemy/home.html
> Alchemy Web bookstore: http://www.alchemy.dial.pipex.com
> Paintings: http://www.alchemywebsite.com/paintings
> Study Course: http://www.levity.com/alchemy/study_courses.html
>
http://sitelevel.whatuseek.com/query.go?crid=6812065c78bba89e&amp;q...
Results from This Site: 1 - 9 of 9 total results for Richard Carpenter
[tcbrcarp.html]
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/tcbrcarp.html - 0k -
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/tcbrcarp.html
English alchemy books A - B
... Worke of John Dastin. p269-274 Pearce the Black Monke upon the Elixir. p275-277 The Worke of Rich: Carpenter. p278-290 The Hunting of the Greene Lyon. p291-303 The Breviary of naturall Philosophy. Compiled ...

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/eng_a_b.html - 41k - 2002-04-30
English alchemical verse
... Philosopher's Stone Testament of John Dee John Gwynn A short work of George Ripley The Worke of Richard Carpenter John Gower concerning the Philosophers' Stone Thomas Charnock - The Breviary of Alchemy ...
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/theatrum.html - 7k - 2002-04-30
[fr-index.html]
... the Alchemists? Cagliostro's Transmutation in Warsaw Campanella's City of the Sun The Worke of Richard Carpenter Cauda Pavonis Alchemical Aenigmas by Thomas Charnock Charnock's Breviary of Alchemy Chart ...
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/fr-index.html - 76k - 2002-04-30
English alchemy books C - G
... / M - Q / R - Z home page Articles Resources bibliography Texts Images Practical Discussions Texts Carpenter, Agricola. Pseuchographia Anthropomagica: Or, A Magicall Description of the Soul: Wherein is ...
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/eng_c_g.html - 43k - 2002-04-30
Modern Rosicrucian groups
... -Lytton, Dr. W.W. Westcott, Eliphas Levi, Theodor Reuss, Frederick Hockley [1809-1885], William Carpenter [1797-1874], and many many more. The SRIA was originally nothing but a study group, and did not ...
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/rosi_grp.html - 56k - 2002-04-30
Database of alchemical manuscripts - Bodleian - Ashmole
... inventione lapidis. 17. Take erthe of erthe erthis broder and in grene hewe clerely distilled. 18. Richard Carpenter's work. 19. Pearce the Black Monk upon the elixir. 20.
'Here folowithe thexposicion ...
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/almss5.html - 98k - 2002-04-30
List of authors of alchemical books
... [1548-1626]. (1 book - 1 work) Johann Samuel CARL [1676-1757]. (2 books - 2 works) Agricola CARPENTER. (1 book - 1 work) Bartholomæus CARRICHTER [1507-1573]. (11 books - 4 works) John CASE [fl. 1680-1700 ...
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/authors.html - 55k - 2002-04-30
Database of alchemical manuscripts - Cambridge
... receipts, with insertions by Charnock.] 9. f66v English poem headed Notabili versus qd Ric Carpenter. Of spayne take the clere lyzt The rede gomme that ys so bryzt.
[Theatrum Chemicum p 275] II. 16th ...
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/almss10.html - 56k - 2002-04-30

Richard married (MRIN:89) Christina-87 in ,,, England. Christina was born about 1336 in of, London, Middlesex, England. She was buried in St.Martin Church, Outwich, London, England.

BIRTH: Abt 1335/1337.
DEATH: aft 1384.

4 M iii. William of London Carpenter-14716 was born about 1340 in of, London, Middlesex, England. He died in 1407 in of, London, Middlesex, England. He was buried in 1407 in St.Martin Church, Outwich, London, England.

His cousin was Roger Carpenter of London.
DEATH: Per Playfair buried in St.Martin Church.

IGI: Other Event(s): Other: 23 SEP 1373 Bromyard, Hereford, England.
IGI: Other Event(s): Other: 16 JUN 1375 Ludlow, , Hereford, England.
Were these other events for children, wills or what regarding a William Carpenter?