Questions about Cherokee or Cherokee related profiles

The Geni tree shows

Catherine Self, {Fictional person} & Catherine "Rising Fawn" Self as wives of Presley Self, Sr.

Sources have been asked for.

I sent Elizabeth Suzanne Grimes an invitation to join this Project.

The Self line is not Cherokee. These bogus trees are often cited with claims about Elvis. A woman named Catherine, daughter (maybe granddaughter) of Ghi go ne li married John Gunter. James Hicks suggests her father was named 'Rising Fawn' but no proof (as usual) and no connection to anyone named 'Self'. The real Catherine was born about 1780 and died in Alabama in 1835.

Pretty sure that Self 'tree' is straight out of "Shawnee Heritage" I'm not even sure that William Self is real.

There were some Choctaws named Self on the Dawes.

https://www.geni.com/path/Catherine-Gunter-of-the-Paint-Clan+is+rel...

This it Will Rogers family and they are Gunters and Cherokee right?
I have see varius Cherokee lines Gunters and other related to Self's I cannot prove the Self line but this is the connection from Will Rogers gr grandmother to Amy Self

Catherine "Rising Fawn" Self

though the path is by marriage...something to search on more I would think.

Then there is also this message board of the Family Bible confirming what Kathryn said
https://www.ancestry.com/boards/surnames.self/558.2.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx

Amelia "Amy" Gunter Self -
Mother:
https://old.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=136914257
Father:
https://old.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=122602503

Presley Self

https://old.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=33298703

Birth: Apr. 4, 1763
South Carolina, USA
Death: Nov. 5, 1855
Calhoun County
Alabama, USA

He married Amelia "Amy" Gunter.

His father was William Presley Self
and his mother was Catheren Rising Fawn.
According to Find A Grave

So can we help fix the tree to get rid of the bogus ?

the Find grave has existing people, Cherokee linking to Will Rogers family
Gunters, Lipes, and Self, Keys,
many Cherokee links and names. Maybe no papers or rolls to Cherokee Self but Gunters were Cherokee and some married Selfs.
that is my point.

Gunter family, connects to Lipe
Oliver Clinton Lipe married Cathrine Gunter (Cherokee)
the families are intermarried Cherokee, White, Chickasaw,

https://www.geni.com/path/Jamey-Balester-Pls-message-me-regarding-c...

Gunters, and Lipes are cousins to Will Rogers Cherokee
Also some women married Selfs

William Penn Adair Rogers b. 4 Nov 1879 Oolaga, CN, IT
d. 15 Aug 1935, Alaska
son of Clement Vann Rogers and Mary America Scrimsher

Clement Vann Rogers, b. 11 Jan 1839, Cherokee Nation, IT
d. 28 Oct 1911
son of Robert Rogers, Jr and Sallie Vann

Mary Ameria Scrimsher b. 09 Oct 1839, Tahlequah Dist, CN, IT
d. 28 May 1890, CN, IT
daughter of Martin Scrimsher and Elizabeth Gunter

Robert Rogers b. 15 July 1815, Cherokee Nation (East)
d. 04 July 1842, Westville, CN, IT
son of ? Rogers (white) and Lucy Cordery

Sallie Vann b. 28 Jan 1818, Cherokee Nation (East), now Georgia
d. 28 May 1882, Cherokee Nation, IT
daughter of Avery Vann and Margaret McSwain

Martin M. Scrimsher (white) b. 1806, Blount County, TN
d. 1856

Elizabeth Gunter b. Sept. 1804, Gunter's Landing, CN (now Alabama)
d. 14 Feb 1877 Cooweescoowee Dist., CN, IT
daughter of Catherine (poss. Risingfawn) and John Gunter

Catherine and John Gunter had seven children:
Samuel m. Lucy(Ayoku), possibly a Vann
Aky m. Alexander McCoy
Martha m. Richard Blackburn (white)
Edward m. Elsie McCoy (origin unk) and Letitia Keys
Elizabeth m. Martin Scrimsher (white)
John no spouse, died of smallpox in 1838
Catherine m. James Vaught (white) and Oliver Lipe (white)

There is no one named Self in this line.

Lydia Gunter Self
Lydia Self

https://old.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=179693233

Will Rogers relationship to the Self family from his great Aunt Lydia Gunter Self
Lydia Self

Jamey, the FindAGraves may be screwing up dates & generations. Try Rootsweb and look for notes.

I found this to work with for this Self line

https://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=whee...

Catherine Rising Fawn Self in the Geni profile above is a myth. The father listed for her didn’t exist, there are no records of any Cherokee women by name that early, there is no one named Self in any early Cherokee records, her supposed children were born in Virginia after she died, and the real Catherine was born about 1780. One of the biographers of Will Rogers says that John Gunter’s parents (citing records from the DAR) were another John Gunter and a woman named Amy Tillotson.

Thank you Erica

Thanks Kathryn. I'm going to isolate the wives out and mark them fictional. I will also isolate out Self people with native sounding names.

It looks like the name of the father of Presley Self who married Amy Gunter is uncertain. If he was a son of Job Self and Nancy Hudson, he could have been William.

Was Nanyehi “Nannie” Lowrey a real person?

I do not see her listed on the page for Maj. George Lowrey, Principal Chief

George Dallas Hopper filed an application for the Eastern Cherokee (Guion Miller) payment, not for land in Oklahoma.

The application was rejected because George was not on the rolls of 1852 and 1884 although he was alive then, and neither his mother nor his grandmother were on any rolls. There were about 13 other relatives who applied on the same basis as George, all rejected.

George listed his parents and John Hopper and Mary Self Hopper; said he didn't know where they were born, knew his mother died in Alabama.

He listed as grandparents Pressly Self and Annie Gunter Self, stating that Annie was born in Tennessee and died in Alabama. He listed Dicie, Betsy, Frank, John, and Abe Self as Annie and Pressly's other children, all of whom were dead. He listed his six siblings, Wurvella, Elizabeth, James, Isaac, Tilda, and Francis born between 1821 and 1833, all also dead.

He stated that John Gunter was his great-grandfather and that one of his mother's brothers was also named John Gunter.

He was unable to explain why none of the people named ever appeared on any Cherokee roll.

Here is the Alabama marriage record for John Hopper and Mary Self:

John Hopper
Gender:Male
Marriage Date:8 Sep 1821
Marriage Place:Jefferson County, Alabama
Spouse:Mary Self
FHL Film Number:
1299236
(image of marriage license available on FamilySearch)

This couple was living in Jefferson County, Alabama, 150 miles from the Cherokee Nation.

George Lowrey's wife was Nannie, the daughter of Ghi go ne li. Starr lists no father. There is nothing to suggest that he was not a Cherokee man. There is no one named Self in this family line.

So that's the origin of "Cherokee in the Family" for the Self line, it looks like. A rejected application.

I've detached this tree topping here

N.N., Pigeon of Tellico (Fictional)

And added to the Project, where it can be merged into Master Profiles and / marked fictional.

So, help me to understand this so far....okay, so no documented Self on Cherokee rolls...I got it.

The people who entered these names as actual family, such as Presley Self and Amelia Gunter Self..those profiles will remain just with a note saying not documente as Cherokee or you are splitting trees?

These are not my family trees, just asking. I do have distant family related to the Gunters and Lipes but on my tree so far found no link to Cherokee.

DeWitt Lipe and family has Cherokee. You are stating there is no real evidence for them to be Cherokee? How did they get on the rolls then?

With the Will Rogers Biography, can you direct us to that with the names Amy Tilotson and John Gunter? There were quite a few John Gunters I have seen in my searches anyway. Also, I did see something with a Tilotson name, I thought it was a Mary Tilotson? Not certain.

http://www.okhistory.org/research/dawesresults.php?cardnum=463&...

Do we know who this Nancy Gunter belongs to? Which family?

http://www.okhistory.org/research/dawesresults.php?cardnum=10818&am...

Jamey, I'm too backed up now with tree fixing to pursue the Will Rogers tree, it should be good on Geni, though; I think Erin added it to Geni.

But to explain how we fix disproven genealogy. Please be aware I am working "before 1850" and usually way, way before. I approach it differently when it's closer family.

First, find sources, add those notes to profiles.

Second, disconnect from disproven parent or spouse.

It is transparent. I leave notes, I leave link backs, and the actions show in the revisions tab.

I had the request from a Self Family member in the discussion on his profile questioning the validity of the Geni Master Profile. She was quite correct, as proven by investigating, in this discussion and by own attempts to find sources.

I've now completed my work on this family unless it comes up again. I'm not pursuing the Gunter issue.

Catherine Gunter, daughter of John and Catherine, was Cherokee from her mother. She married a man named Oliver Lipe. Their descendants would all be Cherokee.
The DAR Genealogical Research System shows some of the information for a patriot from North Carolina, named John Gunter, married to an Amy Tillotson. Born before 1725, lived in Guilford County, NC in 1780, died after 1812 in Tennessee. You can pay to obtain the full record and associated documentation, and yes, he might be a different John Gunter.
The Nancy Gunter above on the Dawes Roll was born Nancy Ward, daughter of James Ward and Lucy Haynie, wife of Caldean Gunter. They were Old Settlers ( moved to IT before Trail of Tears).

Thank you Kathryn for the information reagarding these profiles as well as answering my questions.

Erica,
thank you for all of the hard work you are doing to sort the trees as well and explaining the process.

Thank you all for your diligent work! I'm sorry I haven't been available to help this week, but I'm so grateful to my curating partner Erica, who is a powerhouse.

I'm pleased to see the Self line cleaned up. I have a Self connection through my grandmother's husband, the boxer Eddie Self. I've been the problems in the line, but knowing it would be a lot of work to do the cleanup in the face of a general attachment to fantasy lines.