John Alexander Saunders - Top of the Saunders tree -- Do we have evidence?

Started by Anne Brannen on Wednesday, March 28, 2018
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3/28/2018 at 8:22 AM

Rev. Duane Ruth-Heffelbower, Esq asked a question which is a quite sensible question -- why is this profile, a Saunders, not a Montague?

Looking at the top of the Saunders tree, I have some questions myself.

1) I'm seeing no explanation for why a Montague suddenly became a Saunders
2) this is a highly unusual name -- middle names weren't used at this time
3) NO evidence that I can find, so far, other than family trees on the web.

Looking at the Saunders line further, I'm wondering about evidence for the top of the tree.

This is NOT one of those invented hoax fake medieval trees that one finds on the web, oh, so often, alas.

It looks like genuine mistakes, which then, repeated over and over on the web, take on the patina of truth. But not truth.

So I'm asking about the evidence for several profiles:

Sir John Saunders of course -- and look! His wife is 55 years younger!
Thomas Saunders, of Charlton, Surrey -- a master profile, but no sources but web trees
Richard Saunders -- again, only web trees; he is from Northamptonshire, but born into a Surrey family. HOWEVER, this is the oldest in the line that I see evidence for -- see https://books.google.com/books?id=1w1BAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA159&lpg... -- there he is! up at the top! Hurrah!

However, in Geni -- and innumerable web trees -- he is married to Agricola Saunders -- and this gave me pause, cause I was all like, really? Aricola? Why I have never heard of that name. What is this? Well, I'll tell you what this is. Look at the link to the visitation of Northamptonshire just above. Does it say that Richard Saunders was married to Aricola? No. It does not. It says he was a farmer -- which is what "Agricola" means.

I'm concerned with everybody above Richard Saunders. I think the line needs to be cut off above him. He has lots of brothers and sisters, so that needs to be checked out. He has a sister with a pretty long name for this early -- Jessie Euphemia Todd Murray

Aricola needs to go, too, I think.

Unless! Perhaps there is evidence out there I missed!

And then I will be very happy and all these early Saunders can stay.

But I think something is wrong up there at the top of the tree.

Tagging
Angus Wood-Salomon
Erica Howton
and I will send a message to all the managers of the profiles above, linking to this discussion.

Here is an excerpt from 1913, by Francis Green, written for the Historical Society of West Wales, concerning the Saunders family -- http://www.ivanlea.net/sub_pages/wales.htm

and the top of the tree as it stands in Geni is not there.

3/28/2018 at 9:57 AM

Appreciate your effort on this line. You probably know the Master Profiles are attempts (hopefully successful) in making the uploaded dups into one, and do not speak to source info.

3/28/2018 at 10:34 AM

Oh, I never thought otherwise! There are Masters for all sorts of reasons!

Looking forward to the discussion, though.

This isn''t the kind of Web Tree Medieval Stuff where I say, oh no! This name was not used until 1610! and the like. Well, except for Aricola. No. Just no. (Though I can see a whole line of Fake Medieval Names We Created Out Of People's Professions. Nauta! Hortula! Textor!)

But it's still a lot of stuff that needs to get figured out.

3/28/2018 at 11:50 AM

“Textor” should be revived as a first name. :)

3/28/2018 at 2:19 PM

that's what I thought, too.

Perhaps for a superhero.

3/28/2018 at 2:22 PM

You know, for somebody whose special superpower is really quickly weaving embroideries that confound the bad guys.

3/29/2018 at 3:08 PM

When you see this, it makes Aricola unlikely.
Miscellanea Genealogica Et Heraldica and the British Archivist
https://books.google.com/books?id=1w1BAQAAMAAJ
1868 - ‎Bookplates, English
Robertus Saunders, agricola, tempore Hon. 6, a° 1439.; J l Johannes Saunders, agricola.T I Edwardus Saunders, de Harrington.¥Joanna. I Johannes 2 Laurentius¥Alicia, Gracia, Dorotliea,_'3 Will'muBFDorothea, 4 Thomas¥MargaSaunders, Saunders, (1e filia vxor filin Saunders, lldilia Wil- Saunders./l\reta, de Bed- ...

3/30/2018 at 5:51 AM

I have been researching my family tree for 70 years. I really appreciate the Internet but it is fraught with errors. I did my DNA 10 years ago and I'm trying to learn more about it but I'm just an old dog. Last week I attended a wonderful presentation on DNA research at the local Senior Center. One of the best I have seen. It was more on how to communicate with those matches that will not respond to communications. However one of the slides listed about 20 reasons why names changed in sources. I wish I had photographed that slide because it was not in the hand out. You can rest assured there are more than those 20 reasons why names change. I wish I could recite that that list to you but I'm working with a feeble old mind.

3/30/2018 at 5:56 AM

This is no comparison the the list I mentioned in my previous but there is a lot of info on the Internet about names. This is just one quick search.

http://napavalleyregister.com/lifestyles/columnists/genealogy/what-...

3/30/2018 at 11:26 AM

In the document quoted above it is clear that agricola is an occupation (farmer, in Latin) and not a woman. The old pun about a farmer (or man) out standing in his field comes from a joking school boy mistranslation, I suspect, agricola in agricolam. The farmer is in his field.

Of course, Agricole or Agricola could be a man’s or woman’s name but I have never seen it as such. There was a very famous Agricola in Classical Literature, not well known since the schools dropped Latin as a language requirement.

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