New member of the Saadys/Sandes/Sands group

Delighted to see Nick Alexander here

We have corresponded before and I can attest to his solid research skills and well written presentation of findings.

My thanks to Erica Howton for her commendation. I do try to get things right and am happy to undo previous deductions when new information becomes available.
My next target is to revisit the Sandes of Copford (between Colchester and Chelmsford in Essex (UK) I have not yet managed to determine whether or not they are linked to the main Sandys family.
Nick

Hi Nick.

I have 5 Abraham Sands in a row in my tree.
b. 1585 - d. 1625
b. 1613 - d. 1680
b. 1632 - d. ?
b. 1656 - d. 1726
b. 1689 - d. ?
around the Guildford, Sussex area.

I was wondering if you have them in your tree also. If so, i would like to collaborate with you regarding linking them to the George Sandys (b.1518 - d.1547) who was the brother of Edwin Sandys, Archbishop of York (b.1519 - d.1588).

These are my direct ancestors.

Regards
Steve Clarke

I wonder if your Abraham Sandys was a younger brother of George, son of Robert who was baptised at Wonersh in 1595. This would "explain" why your Abraham named his first son George. Wonersh is an ancient village three miles south of Guildford and four miles west of Shere. We know that there were other Sandes at Shere in the 1570s but I have not yet connected them up with the main Sandys/Sandes family.
Yours
Nick Alexander

While it is certain that descendants of Edwyn Sandys Archbishop of York went to what were then the English Colonies in America and this provides a good starting point for tracing their families there, it is worth remembering that there could be other families with the same surname in England who are not connected to this Sandys family. I have found 41 definite places and 9 likely places in England where the place-name begins with "Sand" and could have been the source of other families named after these places.
All of these are close to sandy beaches on the coast, on river estuaries or at locations where sand and gravel resulting from glacial action have been excavated in recent centuries,
There are another 30 locations around the coast of England where the name ends in "Sands" and families living there could have been named after them as "our" Sandys family was at Burgh-by-Sands in about 1205.
Yours
Nick Alexander

Henry Sandys son of Archbishop Edwyn was born in September 1572 while his father was Bishop of London. At that time, the Bishop had a Town House immediately adjoining the north side of (the old) St Pauls Cathedral. He also had a Palace at Fulham beside the River Thames to the west of London. It is most likely that Henry was born and baptised at Fulham.

In case anyone is interested, I have recently discovered two items about the early centuries of the del Sandes/Sandis/Sandes/Sandys family.
Buried in a Doctorate Thesis about medieval court-cases, I found a reference to a dispute over the Will of Richard del Sandes (c1290-1379). The dispute was between his two executors - his wife Margaret and Thomas del Sandes (c1345-1415). The Thesis does not quote the Will in full but it does show that Thomas was the son and not the nephew of Michael del Sandes as other sources have suggested. This means that Richard had just the three sons Robert of St Bees, John of Southampton and Winchester, and William priest of Kirkbride or Bridekirk.
Incidentally, Rattenby and Rottington now appear to be different versions of the same name.
The other new information relates to William Sandes (c1490-), the grandfather of Mary Sandes, the first wife of Edwyn Sandys who later became Bishop of Worcester, Bishop of London and Archbishop of York. The Cumberland Visitation shows William Sandis of Woodham ferrers, Essex as marrying Margery Gerrard, daughter and heir of John Gerrard of Torney. The latter place should be Dorney, not Torney, and is a few miles from Windsor west of London. The Garrard family did not in fact acquire Dorney Manor until 1542 about 30 years after Margery's marriage to William Sandis, and then it was William Garrard, not John, who lived there.. Prior to that, the Garrards lived in London.
William Sandis is shown in the Cumberland Visitation as the youngest brother of Robert Sandis of Littel Pattenham (=Little Pachesham, near Leatherhead, Surrey).
Little Pachesham was one of the many properties owned by Sir Reginald Bray who passed it to his nephew Edmond Bray in 1509. It is not clear when the Sandis family first lived there. They could have rented it from Sir Reginald Bray from about 1490. They certainly owned it later in the 16th century.
So far, I have not been able to find where Robert and William Sandis were born. Their sister Julian's marriage at Ockham near Little Pachesham suggests that they were grew up there. Also, I have not been able to find when William acquired the property at Woodham Ferrers. There was another branch of the Garrard family at nearby Chelmsford but so far I have not been able to establish a link between them and his wife Margery.

Google is marvelous - when one happens to ask the right question!
It has recently thrown up a document which has some important information about the William Sandys/Sandes who went to Woodham Ferrers in Essex and was the grandfather of Mary Sandes who was the first wife of Bishop Edwyn Sandes.
This concerns a law-suit into the rights of William Sandes and his wife Margery (nee Garrard/Gerrard ) to have possession of Edwarde's Manor at Woodham Ferrers. It shows that Margery inherited it from her father John Gerrard in about 1505, and that William and Margery were already married by that date. The same source shows that their son John was born in 1495.
This makes a nonsense of the sequence shown in the College of Heralds' Visitation of Cumberland dated 1615, which shows "Sir Will'm Sandis was knighted at the Battail of Martin Swarte" and notes that "This Willam lived in the south parts of England" The pedigree then shows him as having four sons and three daughters, the youngest son being "Willm. Sandis of Wadham fferres in Com' Essex" with wife "Margery dau & heire of John Gerrard of Torney"
We know that "Sir Will'm" was born in about 1466. There is no record of him being knighted at the Battle referred to, which took place in 1487. William Sandys of the Vyne was knighted following the Battle of Tewkesbury in 1471, which may explain the herald's confusion.
Hence I conclude that the two William Sandys in the pedigree were in fact the same person and not father and son, and that he got married in about 1490.
If he did fight at the battle in 1487, his commander would have been Sir John Mordaunt who lived at Turvey in Bedfordshire. (I cannot find a "Torney" anywhere. Alternatively, it could be "Dorney" near Windsor where it happens that a William Garrard bought the manor in about 1540.)
William appears to have settled at Little Pachesham near Leatherhead and had his children there before moving to Woodham Ferrers after his wife inherited it.
Little Pachesham is about eight miles north-east of Shere where William's brother Oliver settled. Both places were owned by Sir Reginald Bray, the uncle of Margery Bray who married the first Baron Sandys of The Vyne and who preceded Sir John Mordaunt as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. It appears that Sir Reginald placed relatives at or near Manors that he owned as his agents even though they were occupied by other families.
Cutting a generation out of this part of the pedigree means that Mary Sandes could have been born in about 1525 and about 27 when she married the future Bishop Edwyn in 1552. With the pedigree unaltered, there has to be a succession of very young marriages and quick births to make the links shown possible.
I hope this helps.
Nick Alexander

That's a correction we want to make sure is well documented in Geni. Do you have a link to the document ? We would want to tag it to the profiles if possible.

The article is in the Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society Volume 18 pages 216-221 and is titled Edwins Hall and the Sandys Family. It quotes suits in Early Chancery Proceedings PRO (Kew) 69/26, 292/9,300/34,372/38,375/55 and 575/12.
I am not able to check these personally but R C Fowler, the author of the article, seems to have done a very thorough job.
Connecting the dates makes it impossible for "Sir Wlll'm Sandes of Martin Swarte to be the father of William Sandes of Woodham Ferrers.
Nick

Further to my message of 3rd March 2018, I have now found "The Knights of England: A complete record . . . ." by W A Shaw and G D Burtchaell published in 1906. This record does include William Sandes as being knighted on 16 June 1487 after the Battle of East Stoke (the last major battle in the Wars of the Roses). I think that this means that the William Sandes who married Margery Gerard of Turvey CANNOT be the same person.
If he was, he would have been referred to as Sir William in the legal cases reported in the Esseex article on Woodham Ferrers.
Equally, they cannot be father and son as shown in the "notoriously untrustworthy" Visitation of Cumberland, because the dates make this impossible.
I know that there were other Sands/Sandes families in Essex and Suffolk in the 16th Century who appear to have no connection at all (apart from the surname) to the Sandes/Sandys of Hawkshead, Lancashire and/or of The Vyne, Hampshire.
There were also Sands at Guildford, Surrey who appear to be named after the nearby village of Send (formerly Sande in Domesday Book) and not to be connected with Sir William's brother Oliver Sandes of Shere.
The search goes on!
Nick Alexander

Like Stephen Clarke, I am also descended from Abraham Sandes of Guildford. He married Ann Pruin, however i have never been able to find his birth place or date. The dates that appear on the net in various trees as his birth in 1613 I believe to be guessed as a convenience. I have seen Abraham Sandes marriage to Ann Caplin and their childrens birth dates There is no Abraham,! However I have come across a book in Dorking library about the village of Shere that states Abraham Sandes (the one married to Ann Pruin) bought some land in Shere upon which he built a house for hid daughter Anne. The land was part of Waitlands called the 5 elms and was part of the land once owned by his relation Oliver Sandes.
Has anyone actually seen the documents for abrahams birth in 1613 or any other date.
Duncan Sands.

This seems a good place to record my latest findings.
I have now traced the other families involved in Court of Chancery and other records relating to William Sandes of Woodham Ferrers, the grandfather of Archbishop Edwyn Sandys' first wife Mary.
William Sandes was the son of Christopher Sands and Alice. In 1489, Christopher was sent by the Royal Court to collect rents from Edwarde's Manor at Woodham Ferrers (because the underage heir was a Ward of Court) This is recorded in Volume 2 of Materials for a History of Henry VII.
I believe but cannot yet prove that Christopher was either the brother or the cousin of Sir William Sandys of The Vyne (who was knighted at Tewkesbury in 1471.)
William, son of Christopher, married Margery Gerard the heiress in question. As shown in the Chancery records, her father was John Gerard who was the son of Eustace Gerard and Alice Fleming. (The transcript of the Court Record mentions "Sir Laurence Gerard" but this must a mistake.) Eustace Gerard appears to be the great-grandson of Eustace Gerard who lived at Bowers Gifford about seven miles south of Woodham Ferrers in 1384. Alice Fleming was the daughter of Robert Fleming of Runwell about five miles west of Woodham Ferrers Robert appears to be the younger brother of Sir Thomas Fleming of Runwell (1401-1464) Robert's wife was Rose Kays who was the youngest but only surviving child of Thomas Kays who was an attorney based in the Chelmsford area north of Woodham Ferrers. (The above adds extra details to the article in Volume 18 of the Proceedings of the Essex Society for Archaeology and History in 1926.)
This proves that the Sandis Pedigree in the Cumberland Visitation of 1615 was wrong to show a connection through William (knighted at the battle of Martin Swarte in 1487) to William and Margery Gerard of Woodham Ferrers.
The William Sandys knighted in 1487 at the battle of East Stoke (when the German mercenary Martin Swartz was defeated) was in fact the son of Sir William Sandys of The Vyne. This is attested by several documents (including his Will) in which Sir William Sandys Kt senior refers to his son as Sir William Sandys Kt.
Sir William Sandys senior (1439-1496) was the son of Thomas Sandys of East Cholderton (1405-1442). (Some records between 1471 and 1487 refer to Sir William as being of East Cholderton. This was before he reclaimed The Vyne from the Brocas family.) Thomas Sandys was the son of Walter Sandys of East Cholderton (c1375-1435) and half-sister of Margaret who married Sir Richard Bray. (This exposes another error in the Cumberland Visitation, as Margaret must have been born in c1410 and could not be the daughter of William Sandes and Margaret Rawson who were not married until about 1458.)
Walter Sandys was the son of Sir John Sandys (c1347-1395) who was Deputy Constable of Southampton Castle ifrom 1381 before his wife Joan Fifhide inherited properties including The Vyne, East Cholderton and Catherington.
Sir John Sandys was the second son of Richard Sandes of Burgh-by-Sands. John had left England in 1367 to fight in the Black Prince's Army in south-west France. John was accompanying Sir Matthew Redmayne who had sold his home at Redmain Manor near Cockermouth in Cumberland to Thomas Sandes who was John's cousin.
The Redmaynes and the Sandes moved south within what is now Cumbria to escape the Scottish invasions of north-west Cumberland in 1346 and 1385.
Richard Sandes of Burgh-by-Sands died in about 1382 and his oldest son Robert moved to Rottington near St Bees.
The above proves the connection between the Sandes of St Bees and Esthwaite and the Sandys of Hampshire and The Vyne.
This leaves William Sandes of Harleyford (c1431-1493). He appears to be the son of William Sandes of Catherington Fifhide (bc1410). William of Catherington is only specifically identified in the database of combatants in the Wars of The Roses as the father of Sir John Sandys who was knighted at Tewkesbury in 1471, but occupying one of the properties inherited by Joan Fifhide suggests that he was a younger brother of Thomas of East Cholderton.
The Christopher Sandes referred to above was either a younger son of Thomas of East Cholderton or of William of Catherington.
Sir Reginald Bray the son of Sir Richard (and stepson of Margaret Sandes) was a senior counsel to King Henry VII and his niece Margery married Sir William Sandys junior of The Vyne. The King awarded Sir Reginald with the role of Parker at Royal Hunting grounds at Shere Vachery and Guildford Park in the 1480s. Sir Reginald appointed deputies at each place. The deputy at Shere was definitely Oliver Sandes.
The surname of the deputy at Guildford was definitely Sandes and it is more than likely that this was William as various Visitation Pedigrees show his daughters as marrying into landed entry families within a few miles of Guildford. I believe that Oliver and William were younger sons of the William Sandes of Harleyford Manor and therefore cousins of Sir William Sandys junior which provides a connection with the Brays.
Sir Reginald Bray only held Guildford park for life and when he died in 1503, his deputy William would be out of a job. I believe that he moved the short distance to Little Pachesham near Leatherhead to live with his son Robert and that this is how he gets to be referred to as "of Pachesham".
Nick Alexander

Very nice, Nick. We need to get your findings attached to the relevant profiles.

Thanks for your acknowledgement. Is there anything I can (or should) do to attach my findings to the relevant profiles? I have tried to do so with individual curators of members of the Sandes/Sandys family in the past but without any apparent effect.
Yours
Nick