Meaning of 'z' on a marriage record

"z" = 'from' in Polish. Laie's record appears to be a mistake, unless the record is very old (referring to a birth before 1820)

Thanks. The record is very old. Her son Szmul was born in 1807. This is a marriage record from 1847 though. What could this mean? Were Lai and Ruchla sisters perhaps?

Hi Samuel: I'm not an expert but I've looked at a lot of marriage registers from Poland over the last couple of months and with seeing the entire entry it would appear that Szmul's parents were Mortke and Laie Perl. The "z" in this context would mean that Laie Perl is from the Ruchla family. Could be cousin or niece or aunt relationship with the other Ruchla. There are some online sources for explaining birth, marriage and death registry entries in Poland -- before and after 1820. Just get ready to find, Polish, Russian or Jewish entries.

Good Luck,
Rick

Thanks Rick!

Hello, "z" in Polish means "from". With a name of a female it is the equivalent of "nee'". It requires (in Polish) a different case form of the maiden name of the person in question. What is more, it is a plural form, because it refers to her family, not to a single person. For instant, "Anna Kurowska nee Warecka", in Polish would read "Anna Kurowska z Wareckich", because her parents were "Wareccy" (plural). "Jolanta Mirowska nee Hajduk" would be originally in Polish "Joanna Mirowska z Hajduko'w". Polish is a complex language, and the names, unlike in English, are subject to the grammatical rules (most of time) and may appear differently.

A small z with a period after it usually is an abbreviation for "zona" meaning "wife" although it is not clear that this is the case in this context. I would have to see the original text.

Thanks everyone for your help!

Here is the original record index, maybe it will help:

JewishGen Slesin Marriages, Year 1847, Microfilm 752880.

Groom: FERSZTENBERG Szmul | Father: Moska | Mother: Lai PERL Z RUCHLA
Bride: WEBER Ruchla

I know from other records and research that Ruchla's birth surname was actually PERL and that WEBER is just the surname of a previous husband.

Bernard James Starzewski, Private User does the record index help in determining the meaning of the 'z'? It doesn't seem to mean 'nee' in this context. It can't mean 'wife' either in this context. Has anyone come across anything similar?

Is it possible for you to get a copy of the original record? Whoever transcribed the record, may have made an error or omission.

Trying.

Can you provide a link to the page? Is this a true representation of the notation in it or is it a translation?
Here is an example of the notation used for my family at Strony O Wolyniu.

6. STARZEWSKI Antoni 1901-1980 - s. Stanisława 1870 i Anny z d. Święcińska (Święcicka?), żona Joanna 1896-1971 z d. Brodnicka, dzieci: Konstanty 1925 (*Suchodoły), Halina, Teresa i Celina.
7. KALUŻYŃSKI Michał 1889 - s. Ksawerego i Marii z d. Starzewska (I m.Berezowski), żona Walentyna z d. Brodnicka (siostra Joanny). (od red.: v.n: Kołożyński).
The designation z.d. does appear to indicate the maiden name of the wife though in actual written records it would have read "Starzewskich". Here my grandmother Joanna's maiden name was Brodnicka as well as her sister (siostra) Walentyna. so the notation does seem to translate to "of the family [...]"

I can't for the moment get hold of the actual record. Here's a link to the film - https://www.familysearch.org/search/film/007954404?cat=865960792 but it's not viewable online. I can't provide a link to JewishGen record indexes either but here's the screenshot - https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000044296815754?album_type=phot...

Are you near a Family History Centre or an affiliate?

Not too far. Just have to find the time ;-)

Have you seen the original act or only an index? As I look at your screenshot I can see that there are no parents of Ruchla Weber on it. Maybe someone made a mistake by describing the index. Maybe Szmul was the son of Moska and Lai. And Ruchla's parents are: "Z" Perl (as you wrote above she is nee Perl) and "Ruchla" (mother's and daugter's name is the same)? Or have you checked other indexes in that year - did they have the names of bride's parents? or not (as is it on yor screenshot)?

regards,
Katarzyna

Yes, I would interpret this as meaning "of the family Ruchla.

Thanks everyone. I really have to get hold of the actual record. From what I know from other sources, Ruchla's parents were Michal PERL and Hinde PERL nee LIPSYZC.
It does seem to mean that Lai and Ruchla were from the same family, now we have to figure out how close; were they sisters or further than that? I was just wondering if z is often used in Polish marriage records, and what it would mean in those instances. Well, it doesn't seem to be too common...
I will post a link to the record here when I get hold of it.

Please note possible misspelings and errors: In Poland common Jewish family names were LIPSZYC, LIWSZYC or LIBSZYC. LIPSYZC looks like a misspelled name. SZ in Polish is like English SH, always together for a single consonant. Similarly, a common name you would come across is PERLMAN. I haven't seen PERL, but it may be correct. RUCHLA seems to be a surname, not a family name. In Polish it would rather appear as RACHELA, a frequent name among Jewish girls.

Private User you are 100% correct concerning Lipszyc. I have changed the relevant profiles. Thanks for pointing that out.
PERL is also a common name.
This person appears as Ruchla, Rucha and Ruchel on the records. There are plenty of other examples of these names on the Jewish Gen records.

I agree that you need to see the actual record and translate it.
Is it possible that Ruchla is a village? As in FROM Ruchla?
However, it would not be the first time that Ive seen sudden and unexplained name changes.

There are two possiblities for "z Ruchla" in this context:
1. Her parents' surname was "Ruchel"
2. The name of the village was "Ruchel". But I see no such village in Google Maps within borders of Poland.

Ruchla is a Jewish given name (a variant of Rachela). See here: https://books.google.pl/books?id=qSEBjYeyUpAC&pg=PA67#v=onepage...

And most probably it's used as a given name here - there seems to be an error in the record index.

https://www.geni.com/people/Robert-Wielgórski/6000000022293295906 - I agree with you. That was my first thought.

By the way, I have seen a lot of transcribed Poland records -- as in 9 years of browsing the records from most of the towns in the old Suwalki Gubernia and some in the Lomza Gubernia -- and have seen given names used in place of surnames occasionally.

In Landsmen, the journal for Suwalki - Lomza Jewish communities, the z' seemed to my untrained eye to be used for the patronymic.

Ruchla is most definitely a Jewish given name and I'm confident that that is the case in this context too. What is notable here is that 'Ruchla' is the given name of Lai's son's wife and 'Perl' is the birthname of both Lai and (daughter in law) Ruchla (although not evident on this index). It therefore seems sensible to assume that 'z Ruchla' is somehow referring to the daughter in law. I'm just wondering if something like this has come up before. Well, it seems it hasn't and we need to get hold of the actual record. If anyone happens to be going to a FHC...

Hi everyone! I finally managed to get hold of the marriage document and have uploaded it here - https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000044296815754?album_type=phot....
I would greatly appreciate any help in deciphering it and resolving this issue!
Thank you in advance!

Private User Hi Samuel, I saw you paper what you upload, and next all what i see is and I think on the top was wrote David Roth rabin ( Dauid Roth Rabris), also his name written on left side and later where written also know word znany, where is a signatures
After his name written Zyntnie ze Morski i Lai (i think means Lion) after that names Fendeberg and Ruzhsko (what i think is a Rose on english) after this names written Jakob Weber, (it is Joseph) on the end of paper written a signatures.

David Roth - znany Samuel
Ferzlemberg- znany and his signture is on the jews

right on the paper in the corner written - Ruchel Weber his signature on the jews, after is a Jozef (what means Jospeh) Hibner

then after his name was written a Mosek Libus (Libur) Lubtowski
Ruzzel Weber

of this names also written on left side and also their signatures:

first is a David Roth but written Dauze Roth or Daure Roth but is a same person what is written on the main up

after written Ruzzel but have a two sign ?? but left near written is Weber what is mean and is her born family surname

Ruzzel Weber which is signature on the right on the paper. I think Ruzzel (what means Rose) her born surname is a Weber she was marriaged with Fendeberg

Menser - this name of person is signature of the main paper after Mosek Libus (Libur) Lubtowski
then Josef Hibner,

are witnesses and godfathers at this wedding

also one name written on the right in the corner i think was written Zarphine what means Josephine i think is a woman name, but her surname was written on the left where was written a names of Ruzzel Weber, Menser, Mosek Libus (Libur) Lubtowski, and her surname is a last one

Regards

Hello Samuel :)

The marriage is between:
1) Szmul Festenberg, widowed, 36 years old, living in okręg Ruhria? (I think that it is the name of a place, but I do not know where that place is), son of Mortki and Lai - both dead,
2) Ruchla PERL - 27? years old, divorced of Inda?Jakob? Weber, daughter of Michał and Hinda? Perle (parents pf Ruchla were present by the marriage). Her born name was Perl, married name after first husband - Weber.

David Roth was a rabin.

I tried to translate the text from Polish to English. Unfortunately I don't know the Jewish names so you must correct it :)

Best regards,
Katarzyna

And the name of Ruchla is transcribed: "Ruchla z Perlów rozwiedzioną z Indą Weber" what means: "Ruchla nee Perl (Ruchla from the Perl family) divorced from Inda Weber".

You wrote in the first text: "By Szmul's parents names it says Mortke and Laie PERL z Ruchla. " . But it is not so exactly.
There are two information:
Szmul was born from Mortke and Laie .... and married with (Polish words "i z" between these 2 information) ... Ruchla who was born in Perl family.