Alice Harris (Smythe) - @Alice Smythe Harris

Started by Private User on Monday, August 7, 2017
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The two sources given for this Alice Smythe Harris should be removed as they both contain fraudulent and incorrect information.
See my comments for each one.

If you are asking me to remove Alice Smythe Harris I am not able to do that .....If you have found an incorrect profile , you will need to go to the person who originally added the file or the curator of the file and have then lock the profile until corrections or deletions are made by them.

I believe Alice Smythe was added to my linage through "How are you related " search I am not sure how that is generated by Geni ? It is part of connecting to the world tree .

As a basic user I can't remove a person from a Master Profile .

READ MY LIPS! I did not ask you to remove the Alice Smythe Harris profile I asked to have the two 'Sources' noted in her profile removed as inaccurate.

Erica Howton
and
Linda Kathleen Thompson, (c)

The sources for this profile were added by each of you...would you please look into this.

My apologies Tom King for the misunderstanding as I assumed the entire profile would have to be removed if the sources were inaccurate or fraudulent , I am sure things will get sorted soon as Geni Tree has some wonderful curators .

Hi Tom

I think I'm going to disagree with the request to remove https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000035198149758& from the tree.

Let me explain why.

- Your comments explaining the flaws in the document page are helpful. If the document is removed and someone else finds the page to work with, we won't have that written record / memory - and we'll end up re inventing wheels & re explaining.

- it's a secondary source, a compiler's efforts. Any secondary source should be studied with a critical eye. (And conversely, primary sources are helpfully contextualized with a secondary source analysis).

- My

(continued)

- you will see I had used the "misc" field in the citations to describe relationships, which was my purpose in uploading the document. Right now on the tree you have a request in to clean up the extra children (usually this is merging needed that any member can do). I'm going to use those notes to do so.

- I would need another page uploaded by someone, and annotated in a similar fashion, to replace it for those "relationship conforming" purposes; and easier to read than a Visitation page.

So if that happens I'd be happy to revisit my decision.

And now, I need to fix the tree. :)

OK, I come up with 9 children

The 9 children of William Harris and Alice Smythe were:

# Dorothy Harris living in 1591
# Sir Arthur Harris b 1584....d 9 Jan 1632
# William Harris b 1585....d 1622 in Lincolns Inn, Middlesex.
# Thomas Harris b 1586....d 1617 in England, unmarried and without issue
# John Harris b 1588....d by 14 Oct 1638 in Charles City Co., Va.
# Alice Harris married Sir Henry Mildmay[11]
# Frances Harris married Mr. Roope
# Elizabeth Harris
# Mary Harris married Gyles Browne

----

Wikipedia missed daughter Dorothy who was mentioned in her grandmother Alice Judd's 1598 will.

The Alice Judd Will is not definite as to her relationship to his Dorothy, an earlier son Thomas Harris and several other Harris children named in her Will. Even if they had died, the Visitation of Essex in 1612 would have named them as dsp. died without probate, as was required. Note that the 1612 Visitation was not a census of living people but included many who were long dead and many that were born and died much later. For the titled person, all family members, living or deceased, were required to be enumerated.

https://archive.org/stream/archaeologiacant17kent#page/206/mode/2up

I read it as "and to her [Alice's] daughter Dora ..."

When someone cross references with baptisms, wills & Visitations we can further refine. Certainly it is unlikely she survived & married.

Note that the name of Alice is something a much later person added to the will in parenthesis and completely omits other children that the couple had that have proven dates of birth much before this will was written, but it names a son Thomas that is proven to have been born after the will was written. It is far more likely that Alice had another daughter that married a Harris that had these children Dorothy and Thomas.
If it was Alice Smythe she was bequeathing item to, then these two children would have been named by her or her husband when her heralds recorded their family members in 1612. This would mean that the son Thomas named in the will actually died and they named another later son Thomas Harris.

I agree the will wording is ambiguous. I was wondering if the Alice mentioned by Alice (Judd) Smythe with her children Dora and Thomas was a daughter in law, step daughter, or even a grand daughter in law, she refers to her other daughters by their married name as was the custom.

Is there a full transcription of her will we can examine ?

Yes, but the original is in some chancery court in England. My copy is in a bank storage box that I don't have access to. I think it is the same chancery court that has the Sir William Harris and his son Thomas Harris 1616/7 Wills that I have transcribed around on my computer somewhere. I never depend on transcript or abstracts so I do my own transcriptions.

On the preceding page 205 of the Will, Alice gives 50 lbs to her daughter "Alice Smith" and 10 lbs to Katherine, Elizabeth (both underage), Margaret (no last names) which is confusing since on pg 206 she names married daughters Joan, Mary, Ursala, and Katherine with their married names, then on 207 names daughter Harris (no name) and daughter Elizabeth Smith (unmarried). Evidently daughter Katherine was married to a Fanshaw while still underage or there were two daughters named Katherine. All very confusing. Page 205 says the will extends over several folios and only a portion is published so a full reading of the complete Will is necessary to figure out these discrepancies.

Forgive me for intervening .. just a mention of the possible Dorothy
Sgt. John Harris 1588 , Creeksea Essex , married Dorothy Lymbrey Calcott of VA in 1610.
Their daughter was Dorothy Harris of VA (b)1618 -1684 .
son Thomas Harris of VA. 1614-1677
John Harris ll of VA. 1624 -1664

John was the son of Alice Smythe and Sir William Harris . Grandson of Alice Judde

I thought of that one & actually looked at a couple more Dorothy Harris. Problem is we need someone who is living in 1598 when the will was written.

Don't think the John Harris d1664 was the son of Sgt John Harris. Troops of Gov Berkeley were hunting for this John Harris in Dec 1676 at the home of his father in law but he was not there but Thomas Harris was and was captured, tried and hung in Jan 1677.

William Harris Sr. 1556 Crixie Essex , England (d) 11-20-1616
son of ; Arthur Harris Esq. High Sheriff and Lady Harris Waldegrove

William's sister
Dorothy Harris married Robert Kempe
Dorothy and Robert Kempe had a daughter Dorothy

Kempe is also in another branch of my family tree
Alice Harris

The link not posting sorry... Kempe is shown as being in my tree unless there is some sort of error .

The link goes through my family beginning @ Bynum >Martin>Shipp>Kempe>Judde>Smythe>
Alice Harris
3rd cousin 14XR

Robert Kempe 12-28-1567 Spain Hall Finchingfield Essex, England

son of Richard Kempe 1542 Gissing Norfolk England (d) 5-7-1600 and Alice Cockerham 1545 , Hampstead Middlesex , England . Richard was the son of Robert Kempe 1516 Gissing .... and Elizabeth Grey1532.

Richard Kempe 1542 as son of Bartholomew Kemp and Anne Allyne ( Allen).

Robert Kempe and Dorothy Harris Kempe were the parents of Sir Robert Kempe - 1st Baronet of Gissing .

Provided of course there are no errors .

The Dorothy Harris we are looking for was supposedly born to Sir William Harris and Alice Smythe before 1598, not his sisters or nieces. The Kempe lineage is not germane to this search.

Erica , I don't know if this is helpful to you or not found it in WIKI Tree.

Summary of the Will of Alice (Judde) Smythe

In her will made on 10 Jul 1592, with a Codicil of 22 May 1593, and proved 11 May 1598, she was recorded as Alice Smythe of London wydowe late wife of Thomas Smith late of London Esquier[8].

The position with her husband’s estate must have been uncertain as she commented “as touchinge the disposicion of that porton which I have I would sett downe some certaintie although not so certenlie as I would yf her Maiesties sute were at an end and with the Executors of my said husband”.

She requested that she be buried in the parish Church of Ashford in Kent by the body of her husband “without any pompe or vayne glory or morninge Apparell other then for such morninge Apparell as I shall hereunder give”. She bequeathed mourning apparel to her sons and daughters, their husbands and wives, and servants.

She then described a number of legacies which were to be those delivered first by her executors. She willed that her executors should purchase land which would generate an income of at least fifteen pounds per annum and that these lands should be conveyed to the Company of Skinners in London. The Skinners were to give ten pounds eight shillings per annum to six Almshouses “in greate St Helins parish [St Helens, Bishopsgate, London] founded by Sir Andrewe Judde my father”; thirty six shillings per annum to three poor women in the parish of All Saints Lomabrd Street [London]; twenty four shillings per annum to two poor women of the parish of St Gabriel Fenchurch [London]; and the remainder to the poor of the Skinners. She bequeathed one hundred pounds each to the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, for poor scholars.

Sixty gowns were to be provided to poor women; i.e. twenty gowns to poor women of the parish of All Saints Lombard Street; ten to the parish of St Andrew Undershaft [London]; ten to the parish of St Gabriel Fenchurch; ten to the town of Barns [presumably Barnes, Surrey]; and the remainder to other parishes in London at the discretion of her executors.

There were small bequests to her cousin Constance Glover, Thomas Stubberfield, Frances Jenkins and Mary Gyles; the poor of three parishes in Kent namely, Ashford, Stanford, and Postling; Christs Hospital; St Thomas’ Hospital; Brydewell Hospital; Alice Adison; John Stoddard of Mortlake; Mistress Grace Rosyer; Bridgett Hawkes and her son Thomas Hawkes; her brothers Henry Smythe and Robert Smythe; Suzanna Craunte and her son Thomas Craunte; Mr Churke; Mr Greeneham; Alice Kyte of Kent; Johane Garvie the widow of John Garvie als Gardeners.

With her first legacies completed she then made bequests to her immediately family. The beneficiaries named and their sequence was carefully structured suggesting that her 12 children and 26 grandchildren recorded in the will is likely to represent a comprehensive list of her immediate family living at the time the will was made. The members of the immediate family recorded were her:

son John Smythe, his wife (not named) and their children Alice, Margaret, Catherine and Elizabeth.

son Thomas Smythe.

son Henry Smythe and his wife (not named).

son Richard Smythe and his wife (not named) and their children Thomas and John.

Son Robert Smythe.

Son Simon Smythe.

Daughter [Mary] Davye, her husband Robert Davye, and their children John and Alice.

Daughter [Ursula] Butler, her husband William Butler, and their children Thomas, Oliver, Alice and Catherine.

Daughter [Joan] Fanshawe, her husband Thomas Fanshawe, and their children Thomas, William, Alice and Katherine.

Daughter [Katherine] Hayward, her husband Sir Rowland Hayward, and their children George, John, Alice, Katherine, Mary and Anne.

Daughter [Alice] Harris, her husband William Harris, and their children Thomas, Arthur, Alice and Dorothy.

Daughter Elizabeth Smythe.

There were also bequests to Master Sarjeant Owen [i.e Thomas Owen, Serjeant at Law, the father of Elizabeth Owen wife to the Testator’s son Henry Smythe], Master doctor Smith of Little Wood Street; Andrew Judde; Mistress Fisher; her brother Horsepoole and his wife; her cousin Kinge and his wife; her cousin William Horspoole; her cousins Simon, Thomas, Hawis, Joan and Katherine Horspoole; her sister Martha Goldinge and her two children; her cousin Johane Myller; Mistress Parnell Towerson; John Gathron and his wife; Alice Browne the wife of Henrye Smithe; George Gaywoode and his wife; Mistress Anne Coole; and Bridgett Birde Mistress Rosiers daughter. She also made bequests to a number of servants.

Her sons Thomas, Richard and Robert were appointed Executors. The overseers were named as Sir Rowland Hayward, Master Thomas Fanshawe and Mr Robert Davie.

In a Codicil dated 22 May 1593 she made additional bequests to many of those named above and to some further beneficiaries, namely: her sister Vynor; her cousin Henry Smythe and his brother Richard Smythe; Sir Drewe Drewrye; Mr William Worteley; Mr Richardson; and Thomas Taverner.

I like it! Can you post what the reference was Wiktree used, in other words who did this analysis ? I doubt it was a member, it reads like a professional article

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Judde-2

1.↑ Visitation of London, 1568: With Additional Pedigrees, 1569-90, the Arms of the City Companies, and a London Subsidy Roll, 1589. Publications of the Harleian Society. Vols 109-110. Edited by Stanford H and Rawlins SW. 1963.
2.↑ Transcript of the Will of Androw Judde 2 September 1558. Kent Archaeological Society.
3.↑ Hearn K (1995) Dynasties : painting in Tudor and Jacobean England 1530-1630. Tate Publishing.
4.↑ Will of Thomas Smythe of London. 29 Oct 1591. PROB 11/78/226. National Archives.
5.↑ Ashford Parish Register. Kent History Centre.
6.↑ The Visitation of Kent . Taken in the Years 1619-1621. The Publications of the Harleian Society Vol XLII. Edited by Robert Hovenden 1898.
7.↑ Visitation of London 1633, 1634 and 1635. Publications of the Harleian Society. Edited by Joseph Jackson Howard 1883.
8.↑ Will of Alice Smythe, Widow of London. 11 May 1598. PROB 11/91/377. National Archives.

I have Alice Smythe as a 2nd C -15TR

Alice Smythe

Dorthy Harris 4th C - 13 TR

Dorothy Harris

Since this appears to have the names of her daughters inserted at a later date, by someone who transcribed the Will, we need to see the complete entire Will before this can be accepted as a primary source.

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