Robert Harris - @Robert Harris

Tom: Are you referring to Arthur Harris of Prittlewell ?

By "putting the pin" in that Arthur's profile, one gets this relationship (currently):

https://www.geni.com/path/Arthur-Harris-of-Prittlewell+is+related+t...

Where do you think this should be 'broken'?

I am copying a message that Tom King sent to the Managers of Robert Harris so that we can continue the discussion here....

"Tom King
Today at 2:47 PM
In the first place he was not named John Arthur Harris. The heraldy records only have him as SIR ARTHUR HARRIS who married Johanna Percy.. And the ancestry records of the Heralds of the College of Arms in London show him as the gr-grandfather of Sir William Harris d1616 of Harris DNA Group 4 of Haplo blood group I-M170. This difference in the Haplogroup of Harris DNA Group 6 for Maj Robert Harris d1701 of R-M269 proves conclusively that Major Robert Harris d1701 could not be related to nor have any common direct male Harris ancestor with Sir William Harris d1616 and therefore his direct male Harris ancestry. within thousands of years, back to pre-historic times when the haplogroups were formed in different parts of the world.

Here's a link

https://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&vq=Harris%20perc...

The Visitations of Essex by Hawley, 1552; Hervey, 1558; Cooke, 1570 ..., Part 1
By College of Arms (Great Britain) page 59. Harris (1)

William Harris (married 3 times) is the only child.

I do not see that Arthur was knighted.

This link does not show anything on page 59 nor anything on the other pages in the pull down menu.

Reporting the link

https://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&vq=Harris%20perc...

I'll also get the archive . Org book version linked, it's probably a better resolution

This might be easier to work with

The visitations of Essex by Hawley, 1552; Hervey, 1558; Cooke, 1570; Raven, 1612; and Owen and Lilly, 1634. To which are added Miscellaneous Essex pedigrees from various Harleian manuscripts: and an appendix containing Berry's Essex pedigrees by Metcalfe, Walter C. (Walter Charles); Hawley, Thomas, d. 1557; Harvey, William, d. 1567; Cooke, Robert, d. 1592; Owen, George, d. 1665; Lilly, Henry, d. 1638; Berry, William, 1774-1851; College of Arms (Great Britain)  Publication date 1878.  Part l. 
* Visitation of 1552 "Harris"
[https://archive.org/stream/visitationsofess13byumetc#page/8/mode/2up page 9]
* Visitation of 1558, "Harris No. 1" [Prittlewell] "Harris. No. 2" [same as Harris, 1552] [https://archive.org/stream/visitationsofess13byumetc#page/58/mode/2up page 59], [https://archive.org/stream/visitationsofess13byumetc#page/60/mode/2up page 60]
* Visitation of 1612 "Harris" [of Crixsea] [https://archive.org/stream/visitationsofess13byumetc#page/212/mode/2up page 213]
*Visitation of 1634.  "Harris No. 1" [Southminster], "Harris No. 2" [Crixsea], Harris No. 3 [Maldon][https://archive.org/stream/visitationsofess13byumetc#page/414/mode/2up page 414-415]

This page refers to a grand daughter

The visitations of Essex by Hawley, 1552; Hervey, 1558; Cooke, 1570; Raven, 1612; and Owen and Lilly, 1634 : to which are added miscellaneous Essex pedigrees from various Harleian manuscripts, and an appendix containing Berry's Essex pedigrees v.14 by Metcalfe, Walter C. (Walter Charles). Part ll.  "Raymond". [https://archive.org/stream/visitationsofess14metc#page/696/mode/2up page 696]

For the updated profile of Arthur Harris and Johanna Percy.
Found this profile on find a grave , showing John Arthur Harris 1460 as the father of John Percy Harris 1513 , who married Anne Annis .
You can follow his find a grave links here.

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=121336845

Note that the son of William Harres and Joanna Cooke named Arthur Harrys on pg 13 is the Arthur Harris on pg 213 that married Dorothy Waldegrave. And that the son of William Harris named William is by his 1st wife Johanna Smythe, not the 3rd wife Ann Rutter as claimed on his profile. Also note that none of this are knighted and only the son of Arthur named William Harris actually was knighted and issued a Coat of Arms and Family Crest. Also note that it names his 4th son John Harris who is the American progenitor of the Harris DNA Group4 of Haplogroup I-M170.

FYI, the findagrave.com memorial for Sir John Arthur Harris was invented by a Georgia Girl who could not prove her Harris lineages back beyond 1774 so she gathered a lot of garbage lineage from Ancestry and made lineages back from whatever she found, without ever researching what she had lifted to see if it was accurate. I had her removed as a findagrave memorial contributor over two years ago and am still working to clear up all of the messes she caused in the Harris lines. So be aware if you see any Harris findagrave memorial originally created by Georgia Girl, to take it all with a heavy portion of salt. I wasan't aware that she had gone back this far, so I now have a lot more Harris lineage to correct on findagrave.

I am finding a lot of persons on ancestry as having these same family links ..

also some persons having distant cousins matches with one of my siblings .. another family member who has both YDNA and MTDNA through FTDNA-- who has distant cousin matches with persons who have these same family links added to their pedigree charts.

Same goes with Gov. John West as having married Anne Percy ... the daughter of George Percy 1580 . listed as my 10th great grandparents ,

Even yet profiles here on Geni ... connecting Lady Joan Harris as my 14th great aunt ,her father as one of my 14th great grandparents . and the list goes on and on . Not just ancestry but here on Geni Tree..

Arthur Harris as my 1st cousin 18 TR.

These links through my family are some on my maternal and some on my paternal .
Therefore the interest ..
Through my 2nd great grandmother ... on to the Maitland's of Lauderdale .

I am also finding- (distant cousins match's) to one of my sibling's that link to Edward Goffe 1594 MA.
and the beat goes on and on .....

I wish you luck in sorting through Georgia girl 's find a grave . I am afraid I won't be much help to you ... I am in the learning process and all this can be rather mind twisting !!
Don't know how much a full sequence MTDNA will help in connecting to past generations ?

I commend you all for your ongoing efforts !

Hi Gail Lonette Hunley

May I suggest you give a go at reading the Visitation links I posted ?

Visitations were like census reports but better, because the current head of the family signed off on his pedigree; the Heralds validated it and filed it (I am simplifying!).

If you study the charts, you will see that there were TWO different Harris families in County Essex, what we can call "the Prittlewell" (later Southminster) and "the Crixsea" families, based on where they were seated (resided).

It's the Prittlewell family that married into the Percy's.

When you see a middle name on a profile before 1700, be very alarmed at the quality of the record. So a FindAGrave page calling him John Percy Harris is likely to be flawed.

These are the same Harris families as shown on pg 213. Arthur Harris 1530-1597, son of William Harris Esq and Joanna Cooke, lived in Woodham Mortimer in Essex. where his son Sir William Harris 1563-1616 was born. It is this Sir William Harris who received the Crixsea estate about the same time he was knighted, but it is unclear whether this Crixie estate was given as a reward for his his service in the wars in Ireland. However, there are many other Harris families in Essex, those that are not connected to any royal family and therefore were not enumerated in the visitations.

Perhaps (John) Harris with the additive Percy/Harris is rather an indicative of Mother/father links and not a middle name per se' ? I have seen such errors occur when-people with well intensions "use such" as an attempt to show a persons F/M union .
just a suggestion .

On another note - I have Ann Claiborne West (Percy) 1808 daughter of Hon George Percy Col. governor of VA.
Ann married Gov. John West ... listed as my 10th great grandparents.
As a 13 great grandfather(of mine) - added to the extended profile of Ann Claiborne West (Percy)being listed as Sir Henry Algernon Percy 5th Earl of Northumberland 1-13-1477.

A brother of Lady Joan Harris 1470 Alnwick castle .. wife of Arthur Harris 1466 Southminster Parrish ,Prittlewell a son of William Harris and Anne Jeragan .
Thus Arthur Harris being listed as my 1st cousin 18XR.

Is there a problem with these profiles ?
Thank you Erica as I do appreciate your work here .

Be extremely careful of any Ancestry matches to any of this Harris line. There are tens of thousand of Ancestry trees that still follow the 1954 fraudulent claims of John Boddie that had Robert Harris d1701 as son of Capt Thomas Harris of Jamestown as son of Sir William Harris of Crixie with infinite combinations in between. I feel I must repeat myself. DNA CANNOT PROVE A RELATIONSHIP beyond five generations. It can only verify the paper trail that one makes to prove each generation back. You wouldn't use your DNA profile as proof of lineage to the DAR or SAR as that would not be acceptable. Ancestry may be a good source for some original sources like the censuses, but most of their compiled records are undocumented records taken from mass compilations of records with no actual source cited. And Ancestry trees are the worst bunch of garbage I have ever seen. I have examined several ten thousand Ancestry trees on this particular bunch of Harris and every single one of them has at least one combination of two entirely unrelated Harris DNA lines into one. Any combination of Maj Robert Harris, Capt Thomas Harris and Sir William Harris is blatantly incorrect and not verifiable by DNA. That is not to say that descendants of these three Harris progenitors did not marry into one another's families, which they did many times, but the yDNA remained separate on each male line.

Please note that all of these Visitations contain dates much after the actual date of the Visitation, so one must assume these dates were added much later by the person whose name is on that particular year of published Visitations.In some cases it is known that the herald that published a particular Visitation was not even born or had reached adulthood by that year.

Private User I believe you are saying that this line tops out with William Harris of Jamestown and we should be capping him there - disconnecting from William Harris, of Willingale Doe & Joan Harris as parents?

And our proof of this is that we are showing different haplogroups in his descendants than in descendants of ... ?

(want to make sure we get this as clear as possible)

I am not sure where the line would cap off. I may accept the parents of Robert Harris as William Harris and Ellen Burrows, but none of the Visitations I have seen mention a Sir William Harris, III, High Sheriff of Crixie. I had mapped out all of the lines down from William Harris and Anne Jernegan some 40 years ago from data from the College of Arms in London and input them into the computer but I have nothing on this William Harris and Joan Hardings, not even their names. The descendants of Robert Harris have a different haplogroup that the descendants of Sir William Harris d1616, grandson of William Harris d1556 and 2nd wife Joanna Cooke.

The lists of the High Sheriffs of Essex at https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=High%20Sheriff%20of%20Esse...
only list a William Harris in 1555 of Cricksea
Arthur Harris d1589
William Harris 1598
Sir Arthur Harris 1625 of Creeksea and Woodham Mortimer.
Note that neither of the two William Harris are named SIR. The one in 1598 was not knighted until 23 Jul 1603 and the wikipedia profile states he was the high sheriff.

I took out the knight & sheriff from William Harris, of Willingale Doe profile, he's supposed to be

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~harrisessex/Willi...

So to validate the pedigree

https://archive.org/stream/visitationsofess13byumetc#page/60/mode/2up

(listed under Rowland, son and heir) is William

That is, I believe

William Harris c1516-1559
married Jane Semer of "Brawghinge" (probably Bocking) c1540
Only one known child, a son William Harris.

I'll see if I can find a record

William Harris of Southminster, High Sheriff of Essex
c1490-1556
married 1st Johanna Smith c1515
Had a total of three wives and thirteen children, the oldest being son William Harris.

If you go to Visitations page 59 - 60

I read
1st wife Johanna Smith (A line)
1. Rowland, son & heir
2. William (argued as William m Jane Semer)
George sp

2nd wife Joan Cooke (B line)
3. Arthur married Dorothy Walgrave

3rd wife Anne Rutter (C line)
4. Christopher
5. Edmond sp
Edward married Elizabeth Barrington

Yes, but this William Harris was not a titled person and died in in office as HIgh Sheriff in 1556. The Visitations are not definitive of his son William Harris who married Jane Semer or any of their children. As there are at least four other William Harrises living in Essex at that time, I am positive that James Harris made a mistake in naming the William Harris who married Joan Hardings as a son of this William and Jane Semer Harris.

My error, it was not a James Harris who made that claim as stated in the profile, it was my friend James Phil Harris who posted this in 2001, some of which he has retracted due to further research and DNA testing.

Now that was going to be my next question. I can see from Visitstions that there is no wife listed for the William son of William, High Sheriff of Essex, but there is a reasonable argument made in the study. What have we learned since then from DNA studies? Meanwhile I'm cleaning up based on the study & Visitations.

Are the husbands of Anne Gurgaynie correct?

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Two more resources

This research is the work of Noël Jean Robertson © 2002 all rights reserved.
Descendants of John Harris
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~harrisessex/Harri...

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Will of William Harris of Southminster
Reference - Prerogative Court of Canterbury 1556, 24 Ketchyn

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~harrisessex/Sir_W...

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I believe Noel Robertson & J. Phil Harris are in sync, at least what I've read so far

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The tree is not in bad shape, it needed cleanup on names and that was confusing, and (as always, sadly) more source material.

Who is this Anne Gurganey. It was an Anne Bright that married to Edward Gurganey and died in 1620.
The research of Noel Robertson is entirely wrong on the line of Sgt John Harris of Crixie and Charles City. She had copied the same claims made by John B Boddie in 1954 and did not research them since she lived in Australia. Note, she also gives no family to the son of William Harris and Jane Semer named William (no 16). I've emailed Phil to seen how much of his 2001 listing he now refutes. .
The 1556 Will is generally accepted as the High Sheriff of 1555 but the main problem has been in identifying the wife Agnes named in the Will.
So there are no Visitation or anyone else claiming this William Harris who married John Hardings as the son of William Harris and Jane Semer except the 2001 listing by J Phil Harris for which he cited no sources or references. He also gave 6 or 7 possible fathers for Robert Harris d1701so he certainly wasn't sure of this back in 2001.

I will fix Ann Gurganey, I think that was a Geni error.

For Elizabeth Harris

There was an error on the Harris page 59 of the 1558 Visitation shown more correctly on the Parker page of the 1558 Visitation

https://archive.org/stream/visitationsofess13byumetc#page/86/mode/2up

So finding this meant I could give her to her parents, which made me happy. :)