Saint Arnoul, bishop of Metz - Title Capitalization

The non capitalization of bishop is an acknowledged way of writing in the profession when it isn't in the prefix ie Bishop Arnoul. I'm not especially committed to it, but - for the sake of conformity on the tree - we need to Discuss it publicly, because many Curators are using this format.

Thoughts? Justin Durand

It's a matter of style. There is a trend is modern academic writing not to capitalize titles. It's also a trend in British English. It's a trend against unnecessary and frivolous capitalization. In practice, that makes not capitalizing look more academic and more international. YMMV.

It might be useful to add something about this the naming conventions. It would be nice if everyone did it the same way, but I wouldn't hold my breath ;)

Probably there are Some of Us who might object to Non-Capitalization Just As A Trend, but I don't know whom they might be.

Pardon.

Whom They Might Be.

Personally, I prefer sound grammar rules that last for generations. So called "trends" come and go, they hardly ever stay. But since some of us apparently like or prefer trendy things, perhaps we should start the ridiculous all American trend of not capitalizing anything at all, including names of persons and places. Instead of "President of the United Statesf" we should type "president of the united states"; instead of Duke of" we should type "duke of"; instead of "God" we should type "god"; instead of "Pope" we should type "pope".

I certainly prefer "Bishop of Metz" as opposed to "bishop of metz".

But since we must collaborate and agree to one form, we should decide voting majority with the obvious danger of having to adhere to an ignorant majority.

Linguists tell us grammar is descriptive not prescriptive ;)

"I certainly prefer "Bishop of Metz" as opposed to "bishop of metz"."

neither of those options is whats being presented here. bishop is not a capitalized word nor is of. Metz is a capitalized word because it is a place name. its really not a hard concept to grasp nor is it a trend.

"voting majority with the obvious danger of having to adhere to an ignorant majority."

which is why trump is in office

The word "of" was never at issue. The word "bishop" is at issue and my point is that it should be capitalized when it is used as a title to someone. When it' is not used as a title to someone, it should not be capitalized.

sentence: which would you use

this man was the Bishop of Metz
this man was the bishop of Metz

Jason, I agree with you that the noncapitalized version is the correct one but your example is not at issue. In the instant case we know the man and we know his name.

Enrique, my apologies. I thought you were joking so I wasn't taking your question as seriously as you intended.

If you think back to 7th grade English, the capitalization you are talking about fell under the category of "capitalization to show respect". That is, we capitalize words like God, King, President, Duke, Pope, Bishop, etc., not because they fall under other rules but as a sign of respect.

Technically, the strict rule would be not to capitalize when used as a noun, but capitalize when used as part of a name or as a pronoun.

But, the rules have changed in our lifetimes, and the rules continue to change. Capitalization generally falls now under "style" rather than "grammar". Fewer people nowadays accept that we all owe the old peasant deference to the nobility and clergy, for example. Then too, there is a strong trend away from capitalization in general, and especially where (like this) it is a special case.

This article makes the point:
http://grammarist.com/capitalization/

It says, for example, "there is much disagreement over when to capitalize. Every major publication and publisher has its own standards, and many writers have their own preferences (which are generally overridden by in-house rules during publication)."

And, "the best rule of thumb for capitalization is to err on the side of minimalism."

Then -- because I know you won't believe it without a concrete example -- here is a style guide that specifically recommends the usage you're complaining about:

https://www.englishforums.com/English/NounCapitalizationQueryBishop...

It gives these examples:

* "Bishop Smith will be speaking today." -- capitalized title before a person's name

* "Johann Smith, bishop of XXXX (place) will be speaking today." non-capitalized title after a person's name.

* "Good morning to you, Bishop." -- direct address taking the place of a name is capitalized.

* "We will need a bishop to speak at the ceremony." -- non-capitalized when not referring to a specific person.

This is the style guide that can be inferred from most of the academic history I read, although I don't know the specific source.

As a former editor, this is also the style guide I use myself.

Personally, the style that makes me nuts is the modern news headline style that capitalizes every word. So -- Bishop Of Metz (*shudder*). We all have our buttons ;)

As always, thank you very much for your lengthy and detailed explanation on when and when not to capitalize titles.

I continúe, however, to believe that, as you've clearly previously stated, the decision to capitalize someone's title boils down to whether one has or does not have RESPECT for the person and/or his or her title.

In the instant case and according to GENI, Saint Arnoul is a direct ancestor of mine and I am almost certain that his several hundred profile followers would not object to having his title capitalized for the sake of respect to a direct ancestor (as you've clearly stated). I can hardly imagine a profile follower that would not have respect for Saint Arnoul, Bishop of Metz.

> the decision to capitalize someone's title boils down to whether one has or does not have RESPECT for the person and/or his or her title.

Enrique, you've missed the point.

Capitalization for Respect has nothing to do with personal notions of whom to respect or disrespect.

Instead, it's firmly rooted in classist ideas of the nobility as the governing class and the church as the established church. You aren't paying respect to honored ancestors, you are doffing your cap to m'lord and m'lady, your social superiors.

This idea lingers in the midst of change. Many style manuals that prescribe lower case for other examples, still prescribe capitalization for heads of state and for the Pope.

I think you've now officially joined the ranks of us other COGs (Cranky Old Guys) on Geni, but I don't think it's going to get you very far in this argument ;)

Elizabeth II, Queen of the United Kingdom

Besides ranking, please tell me why the difference between the following two examples:

Elizabeth II, Queen of the United Kingdom and
Arnoul, Bishop of Metz

Elizabeth II, queen of the United Kingdom and
Arnoul, bishop of Metz

Because the curators who police queen elizabeth make up their own name rules. E.g entering plantagenet as a surname for people who never used it

enrique treat gleason esquire and jason scott wills will know that I am referring to them even though I have used only lower-case letters (and no punctuation) to spell their names...

Long live the Oxford Comma!

Enrique, Jason is right but there is likely another reason -- as I said above, many style manuals make an exception for heads of state. The Queen is head of state. Bishop Arnoul was not.

So let's erect a statute in honor of Saint Arnoul. What title would you place on his plaque to honor his name? Would you engrave Saint Arnoul, Bishop of Metz or Saint Arnoul, bishop of Metz.

I think the latter is not only distasteful and disrespectful for the known man but also lacking in aesthetic style.

Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnulf_of_Metz to consider that Saint Arnulf of Metz was "a" bishop of Metz, not "the" bishop of Metz, which would mean that his name is correct on Geni with the "small" b for bishop. But, if we really want his name to be correct on Geni (or a plaque for a statue) won't we have to change it to Arnulf of Metz anyway? So who cares about "bishop" being capitalized or not when it isn't really even part of his name...

Devil's Advocate,
bygones,
ben

any inscription of him at the time would have been in latin which only used capital letters

SANCTUS ARNULFI EPISCOPO METTENSI

Maybe you meant a statue, Enrique?

Personally I don't mind whatever people uses as long as it's correct. If you would, you could have putted the title first, then it would have been Bishop of Metz, followed by his name, but when putting it in the suffix, it becomes just "bishop" with a small letter. In Sweden we have the same writing rules (probably as many other countries), when it comes to title, occupation and births estate.

Ok so he is "also known as" SANCTUS ARNULFI EPISCOPO METTENSI in the provided box...no big whoop...but since the title of Bishop sort of pales in comparison to having been made a Saint, I have to believe that the best name for him would be Saint Arnulf of Metz (if the best name for him isn't already on his profile).

I agree, a plaque for his statute and his name on GENI should be in LATIN! I, however, no longer give s hoots if you guys want to deminimize his title. Oh, but is okay for a named queen or king, etc. to have his title capitalize but any lower ranked title to remain I capitalized.

What about the following examples:

Benjamin Affleck, Professor of English or
Benjamin Affleck, professor of English

Juan Mariachi, Doctor of Medicine or
Juan Mariachi, doctor of medicine

Donald Duck, Ph.D. or
Donald Duck, ph.d.

Justin Besver, Attorney at Law or
Justin Beaver, attorney at law

I think it boils down to whether you think B/bishop in the suffix field is indicating a proper or a common noun. As far as I can see, the same rule applies to Q/queen.

Oops, sorry for my failure to proofread: Oh, but [it] is okay for a named queen or king, etc. to have his title capitalize[d] but any lower ranked title to remain capitalized.

Oh, what an egalitarian system we adhere to -- high-ranking heads of state deserve capitalization but a bishop or other low-ranking titles do not!

Yes, you made that point. I think the answer that different Curators are applying different rules was made too.

The current pope is a bishop. He is the bishop of Rome. Hardly a low-ranking title.

Ben, yes, I agree with you but unfortunately some people, including curators, do not think that the title of bishop is a high-ranking title that deserves capitalization.

Enrique, we can erect a statue to Arnoul and at the same time let's do one for Jeff Davis so we can all argue about racism versus heritage at the same time we're arguing about classism.

If I were going to erect I statue I would choose title case for the inscription, as opposed to sentence case or headline case. It's not a good example of how to make a choice, I don't think. The context is different.

As we see here, language can become a battleground. I see that you are honestly offended and you think this usage is "distasteful", "disrespectful", and "lacking in aesthetic style" but if we change it, there will be people who disagree for exactly the same reasons. That's the way it always is when people argue about racism, sexism, and classism. There's no pleasing everyone.

There are dozens of ways users have implemented different stylistic standards on Geni. I'd like to see more consistency, but my basic philosophy is that if something isn't clearly inaccurate, style is a purely personal and very secondary consideration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop

Isn't it interesting how rare the capitalization of bishop actually is...even in an article about bishops...