Saint Ida of Herzfeld - Sources?

Good work, if you're buried in a coffin like this, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Herzfeld_... and all the experts are united in the view that she was related to Carloman, it's then perfectly good to cut her parents off, quick and without hesitation.

So do you have the sources?

You need to use your own brain, among the clues and different suggestions, people had set up the most likely parents, I believe it was Carloman and Geberga, a note in her profile saying "plausible but not proven" would have been enough, since direct evidence are missing and the connection have been made by other indications.

If people can't see any difference between plausible and arbitrary solutions, they lack profound knowledge and should engage in other hobbies, otherwise we end up with people making bad decisions all the time based on the recipe, not proven=false, not proven, =disconnect, I don't know=disconnect, ?=error.

We have enough of bad curators that has already cut away to many good relationships as a result of their lack of deeper insight, just boasting off in their full ignorance. If the relationship is not proven false as in a forgery, some profiles actually has a greater value in being left untouched, functioning as an indication about in which direction to look, and no, this isn't the same as anything goes.

The arbitrary solution is to designate her a daughter of Carloman on no proof at all. Personal insults have no place in this kind of Discussion.

Sharon Doubell

Please point out the personal insult, or did you automatically count in yourself in the group of too many bad curators?

The luxury of a coffin only provides evidence of being am important person. Only incriptions might provide further evidences.

The cited evidence (wikimedia) is actually referenced in a page (wikipedia) which is actually saying that Ida was the daugther of a Saxon count and not of Carloman. It also refers to a theory identifying Ida with Redburga, however same reference questions the existence of Redburga.

So, current evidences in place are actually supporting strongly the parent removal. If further evidences are not provided the current situation is the most accurate from historical point of view.

Expressions like "use your brain" or "full ignorance" do not look to be the best way to argument a logical, proof base, discussion.

Private User

"Expressions like "use your brain" or "full ignorance" do not look to be the best way to argument a logical, proof base, discussion."

Do you know what irony means?

Here on Geni we have a problem with the ongoing doings of some few curators, they act first, and then maybe, if they feel like it, start a discussion about it.

In order to act you have to use your brain, but in order to act proper, you actually have to USE your brain capacity. The result of not doing so, means that they only convey contempt for them self, if you support hooliganism or other anarchistic behavior and tendencies , well, then I guess you have no problem at all with their actions, cut, discuss maybe, but primarily, just cut first discuss afterwards.

Here one that support the previous set of parents, if you don't understand German, use google translate or something similar.

"Karlmann war mit Gerberga verheiratet. Mit ihr hatte er zwei Kinder, Pippin (770 bezeugt) und ein weiteres Kind. Nach Einschätzung des Historikers Eduard Hlawitschka soll es sich hierbei um Ida von Herzfeld gehandelt haben.[1] Gerberga und ihre beiden Kinder flüchteten nach Karlmanns überraschendem Tod in das Langobardenreich und stellten sich unter den Schutz des Königs Desiderius. Jedoch verschwinden sie nach 773/4 aus den Quellen, nachdem sie der Gefolgschaft Karls in die Hände gefallen waren. Sie wurden wohl entweder beseitigt oder inhaftiert, um Karl die Alleinherrschaft über das gesamte Frankenreich zu ermöglichen."

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlmann_I

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_von_Herzfeld

The German article cites no primary sources, and gives no scholarly explanation. Should you wish to discuss the scholarly merits of the theory of the historian, Eduard Hlawitschka in Die Ahnen der hochmittelalterlichen deutschen Könige, Kaiser und ihrer Gemahlinnen. Hannover 2006, there can be a further "logical, proof based discussion" as Valentin says.

Dear Sharon
In my opinion is prof. Eduard Hlawitschka in München (Germany) the best person for information about Ida. See below a translation.
In all cases of found informations Ida had to call Karel der Große her uncle.
All the best Everard van Dijk from Holland. .
.
Ida the Holy Duchess of Saxony
By 770/75 + by 814 / against 825
Buried: heart field

http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/mittelalter-genealogie/_voelkerwanderun...

Possibly daughter of the Franconian King Karlmann
According to E. Hlawitschka daughter of an unknown Franconian count and the Gerberga, widow of King Karlmann

Dear Sharon,
If you read Prof. Eduard Hlawitschka, you must read Prof Eduard Hlawitschka and his successors, because the professor is retired.
Best regards, Everard.
What I miss are good German-speaking curators.

The only sources I could find on a sibling for Pepin were The Annales Lobienses and Einhard (http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAROLINGIANS.htm#PepinleBrefFranksB)
Cawley tells us specifically that there is no indication of the sex of this second child. This precipitated my cutting of Ida's connection to Carloman, King of the Franks.

Speculation by modern historians that Ida's father was an unknown Frankonian or Saxon count are useful to have recorded in this Discussion. Thankyou for logging them.

Actually I know what irony means, my sentence was using irony. If you think a curator is miss behaving Geni is offering you the right tools to declare or remark the issue.

So far looking to this case the facts are the following:

- The original profile was not including citation to the right source.
- There is a citation of a source argumenting being the daughter of Carloman.
- There are several citations argumenting the opposite.
- Sources are of similar importance.

I am able to cite 3 different citations of the same level providing opposite argumentation to say is not daughter of Carloman. For the french and the spanish one you can also use google:

"The daughter of a count, Ida received her education at the court of Charlemagne, who gave her in marriage to a favourite lord of his court, named Egbert, and bestowed on her a great fortune in estates to recompense her father’s services. It was an apparently happy marriage."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_of_Herzfeld

"A veces se le confunde con Redburga o Raedburh, como cuñada de Carlomagno, o como hija de ésta. Esta Redburga se casó con el rey Egberto de Wessex en 800. "

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_de_Herzfeld

"Les détails de la vie de Saint Ida, cependant, rendez-le peu probable qu'elle a été mariée à l'Egbert qui était roi de Wessex"

http://wikipedia.qwika.com/en2fr/Saint_Ida_of_Herzfeld