Capt. Henry - Creeches, supposedly killer by Indians in James City. Help, oh, help.

Started by Private User on Thursday, April 13, 2017
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An interesting thing.... I was looking in FamilySearch and see that:

Henry's wife, Joyce Paine is listed as the daughter to Benjamine Paine and Frances Joyce Beale (mind you, middle names did not exists at that time frame).

Frances Joyce Beale is listed as the sister to Mary Francis Beale.

Mary Francis Beale is listed as the mother to Henry Creech.

Thus making Henry and Joyce not only husband and wife, but also 1st cousins.

James, I think Creech did indeed come from Creich, Fife, Scotland but ventured out from there. I sent out an email to a few places and one of them responded. They listed a book by George Black called ‘The Surnames of Scotland’ can be useful in suggesting areas where family names tend to cluster. It is available online here - http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015011274175;view=1up;s... . When looking at that website, #297, page 183 in the book, it talks about Creech.

Thanks Rose. Glad to see you digging. I have seen this and similar ones. The one problem we have is the first sentence states "where a family of this name rented land for generations." Then later states "there is no trace of any family bearing the name occupying the lands. I have looked up the surnames of families of Creich Parrish and no one has even a similar name. Nor is there a record of one. Not to say there never was. As you can see from my list, I posted yesterday there were families in other parts of Fife and other Counties in Scotland in the 1600s. The Fife County Creech variants were on the east coast of Fife County. And yes, could have moved there from Creich Parrish. The problem we have is we have nothing to prove it. Creich and its variations comes from the Celtic word for rocky place or hill. So, any family that lived on a hill, especially a rocky hill might be called Creich. Just like there are people today with the last name Hill. Not referring to any particular hill. Similarly, the name Crouch comes from the Anglo-Saxon for cross. So, a family living by a crossroads might be named Crouch. There were families in the 1600s from different counties in Scotland and England that do not contain a Creich place name. We cannot be certain that they necessarily came from a village or parrish named Creich or Creech. Maybe they just had once lived on or near a rocky hill. Yes, it is frustrating. Keep digging for evidence. you are doing a great job. Thank you for staying in touch.

Giles Creech of London, England, 1638. https://read.dukeupress.edu/jmems/article-abstract/48/3/553/135392/.... As far as I know he never left England. Just a reminder, of the fact we really do not know where Henry Creech came from. England or Scotland? There are no records to prove one way or the other. We know there were other Creechs in the Colonies too and no record where they came from. Except of course we know Richard Crich sailed from Gravesend, England. But where his home was?

Not only are we curious as to Henry's origins and true parentage, but........ What do we know about the ship "Nancy" that he was supposedly a Captain of? I can not find anything on that either other than what has already been told in Creech lore. No actual documents. I also found another man named Henry Flower who's biography sounds almost exactly like our Henry https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/132842993/henry-flower.

http://www.evmedia.com/virginia/ has Richard Crich listed but not Creich, Creech, Crichton, etc.

You are correct Rose. The Richard that Carter sponsored was named Crich on records. I have also seen it spelled Critch. Having never seen the original document I don't know which is actually on it. One thing to keep in mind is that was a verbal society. What I mean is spelling was pretty loose. There are documents where one person's name might appear 3 times in it and be spelled 3 different ways. Not many people could write and many who could were not very good. Standardized spelling was weak at best. Add to that the multitude of accents from all over the kingdom. The recorder might write down what he thought the speaker said or write down a similar name that the writer was familiar with. For instance, on the 1820 Lee County Virginia census my ggg grandfather Elijah Creech (brother to your John) is listed as Scrich. Other years as Creech. Similarly on the 1845 tax list some of the Creeches are listed as Screech. Yet in the years before and after they are listed as Creech. Another example is my Christman ancestors. Every once in a while, they will be listed as Christian instead. Only by checking the record closely can I determine that it really is them. Often the correct spelling will be the year before or after. Speaking of spelling, this leads to an interesting point. I understand in the 1690s Henry Creech was a Justice of the Peace. Being able to write would have been a requirement and his signature is said to be on some documents. This would indicate that he came from at least a middle-class family. The middle class in England sent their boys to schools. Whereas the rich hired tudors for their children. In America, few who came were able to read or write, so if you could you often became a JP in the frontiers. I saw somewhere yesterday that the Richard story was a family oral history. Henry being a JP may be where the idea he was a son of a Scottish Lord came from. The thing is oral histories are often unreliable. I had heard for years we had Cherokee in us. My DNA test found no Native American.

I should rephrase that about Richard story. I read somewhere that the story about "Richard being killed by Indians" is supposedly an oral family legend. I don't know which family or how old the legend was. I have not seen or heard of any claimed ties to the Beatons (Bethunes) or Creich Castle more than 50 years old. Nor any documentation to base such a claim.

I ran across some interesting facts. In the 17th century (1600s) about 35% of Scots were literate. About 30% of the English. Scotland had a big push to provide basic education to everyone starting around 1616.. Education was not compulsory and was more easily available in cities. Near cities literacy rates among yeoman farmers, tradesmen, and craftsmen would have been over 50%. The point is that Henry Creech would not have had to be part of the gentry (or the son of a Lord) to know how to read and write. Education was available to most, even common laborers. Sure, some did not take advantage of the opportunity because they failed to see any benefit to their place in life.

That is interesting. The lore I heard about the family is that the boys, Henry and Nicholas, were away with Francis brother so they could finish their education before coming here permanently.

I looked up that story on the web about a year ago. Showed up on a Beale genealogy. Their only source was John Milton Creech's book. Also found it in a Bell genealogy book. It followed the now disproven version of the 1856 Bell will also in the James Milton Creech book. All references to this story I have found, reference list James Milton's book as their source. But not even he provided a source for the story. The uncle in the Beale genealogy moved from England to Massachusetts in 1638. The earliest known Richard Creech (Richard Crouch has been proven to be an English carpenter born about 1586) arrived in Virginia in 1635. So far, I can't find anything that predates the 1972 book. I can't even find anyone claiming another source.

Regarding the Richard Crich killed by Indians. I posted a while back about a Richard Crouch, Lieutenant British Navy, in died in 1619 near Jamestown from a disease while working on a naval construction project. His sister Mary Tue in England was his heir and sold his 150 acres in Virginia. Is it possible that this Richard combined with the English carpenter Richard Crouch of 1623 and the Richard Crich (origin unknown) of 1635 are what sparked the legend of Richard and the Indian massacre. Obviously this Richard Crouch was unmarried too, as his sister was his heir. Far more colonists died of disease than arrows and tomahawks.

I can not find a ship named Nancy that was captained by Henry Creech in the 1600's. I have found them in the 1700's but none with a Henry Creech.

Regarding Richard Critch.....A book published in 1912: Greer, George Cabel. Early Virginia Immigrants 1623-1666. https://archive.org/details/early-virginia-immigrants-1623-1666/pag... It actually has a Crich, Richard, 1635, by William Carter, James City Co.

https://www.packrat-pro.com/ships/transport.htm. Richard Critch. Same person. Different spellings. Don't know what the original document has. Guess it depends on transcriber

Well done, Rose! I had looked for a ship named Nancy in the 1600s. But with no luck. I wondered where James Milton Creech had gotten that ship name. It appears James mistook Henry Creke for Henry Creech. Captain Henry Creyke was the son of Gregory Creyke of Yorkshire, England. He was the captain of a merchantman in Virginia, but he died in 1684. He was married to Madam Alice Corbin (her 2nd husband) but, they never had any children. She had children by Henry Corbin (her 1st husband). He left his whole estate to Alice and her children from her first marriage. Source is "The Virginia Magazine of History and Biography, Volume 29, published in 1921, page 378". Sadly, it appears James Milton Creech mistook Captain Henry Creyke for Henry Creech. If so, there are a lot of genealogies out there with the error in them. This and the true Bell will seem to put the "Nancy" and Captain Henry Creech of Virginia to rest.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D841348 In the National Archives of the UK is a copy of the probate of the will of Henry Creech. It is dated Oct. 7, 1665. Thus, he died before that date. It also lists him as a member of the Skinners Which means he belonged to the Worshipful Company of Skinners, which dates back to 1322. They were a trade association of fur traders. One of the 12 Livery Companies of the City of London. They even had their own cathedral in London. They built schools, did charity work, marched in parades, even had a magnificent barge that participated in floating parades on the Thames River. And of course, promoted the interests of their members, the fur traders. What is significant here is that this provides evidence of who Robert Bell was mentioning when he left a ring to Henry Creech in his will 1656/57. James Milton Creech writes "to my kinsman" and then a list of men including a Captain Henry Creech, in America. But the actual document said, "to my friends" and the phrase "in America" is not in it. It appears James M. Creech has gotten ahold of a doctored copy. For context, Robert Bell was a very influential member of the Worshipful Company of Skinners. Which was much like a trade fraternity with religious overtones. Robert Bell and the Henry Creech in the 1665 will would have been like fraternity brothers. It was common in the 1600s to leave a mourning ring to people who were close to you. Whether the London Henry Creech was a sea captain, an army captain, or held the rank of captain in the Worshipful Company of Skinners, I don't know. One possibility is that the Worshipful Company of Skinners launched their magnificent parade barge in 1657 shortly after Robert Bell died. Maybe Henry Creech was to be the "captain" of the barge. Of course, that is not provable, only a possibility. Anyway, now we can put to rest the legend that Henry Creech of the late 1660s Virginia was a ship Captain. Nowhere is there anything to even suggest that to be a fact..

According to Alice's Geni page, she was married 3 times. "The youngest of them, Alice Eltonhead, is said to have waited until her sixteenth birthday in order to marry wealthy, middle-aged tobacco planter Rowland Burnham, who owned a large tract of land within Middlesex County. Burnham died in 1656 after Alice had given him three sons and a daughter. She quickly married Henry Corbin (pictured left) who was killed during an Indian uprising in 1676 and Alice remarried again in 1677." So I would assume the last marriage would be to Henry Creyke as he is listed as stepfather to her children.

I emailed the Skinners to see if they have any information on Robert Bell and Henry Creech. So here's to hoping they have something. But I doubt it. LOL!!!

Regarding James M's book, apparently it has been known since the late 1990's that the book had misinformation in it but some just didn't want to change their source/information and just kept it.

Great work Rose. I had thought there was a 3rd marriage for Alice. But when I searched the other day my search engine only found the two. It can be frustrating to try to relocate information I found a year ago sometimes. You would think it would be easy peasy. Great move contacting the Skinners. Hope it leads to something. I didn't download Henry Creech's 1665 probate because the file was 3MB in size. It is significant that he existed and was a skinner. If you can prove the Captain title it would definitely nail it. Though the probate pretty much settles it.

Regarding the continued use of some of the misinformation in James Milton Creech's book and a couple of others. I think we all would like to have a complete genealogy with a few colorful stories in it handed to us with a brightly colored ribbon 🎀 tied around it. I am sure James Milton Creech' did too and wanted to give us one. But there is so much we just don't have records for. And sometimes we stretch too much trying to connect facts together that don't belong together. 50 years ago I moved to Indiana. My folks had divorced when I was in grade school and mom moved us west to be near her family. Dad said he would help me get a job after I got out of the service. Anyway I got a job and the first day on the job my supervisor was James Creech. Now my dad and his brother had come from Illinois after WWII. They were the only Creechs knew. James Creech and I talked trying to figure out if we were some how related. Could not find any connections. A couple years later my doctor had another patient named James Creech. Couldn't find any relationship to him either. 3 James Creech in one county at the same time. Without good records to separate us what confusion might a future genealogist experience. Especially if they assumed we were just one person from one family. So we just plug along best we can. Knowing the older the ancestors the less we have to work with. And with the humility to accept sometimes we get it wrong. And the integrity to admit it and try to correct it or at least leave it blank rather than make up.answers. But at least we try. I see you are a person of integrity. It is a pleasure to work with you. P.S. I have tried to eliminate some errors in my family tree. But Geni won't let me as they are from merges. I am working on how to fix this. That is one problem with joint trees.

I'm in the same boat as you James. When I was little and still living in Harlan, my doctor had 2 patients with the same name as I, same birthday, etc. I mean, everything was the same except she was in her 80's and I was around 5 years old. Oh and our social security numbers were the same exact except for one number. When I moved to Southwest Virginia, I discovered a lady with the same name and married name as me, only she is older, and our dob's are different.

Wow! Same maiden name and married name. That's crazy!!!!! Just shows that just because we see the same name on a record, it doesn't mean it is the same or a related person to the one we are researching. Somebody the other day gave a me a business card from the head pharmacist at COSCO's. They asked me if I was related. I had never heard of her before. Pretty sure she isn't. Gosh, you are in a pretty good spot to study Creech genealogy. In 1800 my ancestors on both sides of my family lived in Lee County, Virginia. Funny thing is my dad was in the army, during WWII, stationed in California. He met my mother at the USO. Her father had a turkey ranch out there. Her gggg grandfather built Chrisman fort at Rye Cove, Virginia. He was killed outside the fort by Indians in 1776. Mom's ggg grandfather was only a few months old. It has been a few years since I was in that part of the country. Didn't know all this then. Enjoy your roots.

Have you heard back from the Worshipful Company of Skinners? Here is an update on Henry Creech, Skinner, of London. https://www.jstor.org/stable/41615386 In 1649 the Cromwell government appointed a committee to locate, retrieve, and inventory the valuables from the estate of King Charles the I who had been executed. The plan of the government was to sell them off so as to pay off its debts. You can read this page for details. What is important to us is that one of the members of that committee was Henry Creech, Skinner. That is, he was a member of the Worshipful Company of Skinners. This is obviously the same Henry Creech, Skinner whose will was probated in 1665 in England. Looking at the names of the other gentlemen on the committee it is also obvious that Henry Creech had a notable and distinguished reputation. Robert Bell was also a leading member of the Worshipful Company of Skinners. Thus, this is more evidence that the Henry Creech in the Robert Bell will is actually this Henry Creech. Again, I mention that the will actually lists Henry as a friend (not a kinsman as James Milton Creech wrote and it does not say "in America" either). This Henry Creech is the only one we know he would have been friends with. Thus, this also probably puts to rest the Beale connection in turn, as it also seems to come from this will.

I have not heard anything back yet. I asked if they had information on both men as they are supposedly members from the 1600's.

The Skinners is still an active org, so there were numerous email addresses to select from. Just hope I selected the right one.

I suppose someone there will have to research it. Hopefully your request will end up in the hands of someone willing to do it.

Finally got an answer:

Thankyou for your enquiry.

Unfortunately, all of the company archive for this period of our membership records now resides within the Guildhall Library in the City of London.

The Skinners’ Company does not employ an archivist that would be able to assist you, however, should you wish to visit the Guildhall Library these records are available for the public to read.

I do have a copy of the catalogue and would suggest that the following records might be able to assist you

MS 30719/01

MS 30719/02

These are the records of new Apprentices and Freeman of the Company dating from 1493 -1694, however please be aware that whilst legible they are extremely difficult to read.

All visits to Guildhall Library need to be pre booked at the address listed below requesting the items required for that visit, there is still the requirement to wear facemasks for the visit.

guildhall.library@cityoflondon.gov.uk

I wish you luck with your research.

Kind Regards

When did this Robert Bell die?

Also, in the Bell book, it talks about the Creeches on Page 5. You can see this on Amazon.

It also talks about the Skinners.

So from what I can gather on what the Bell book writes: Robert Bell married Lady Elizabeth Anderson, daughter of Edmund Anderson (Chief Justice of the Common Pleas under Elizabeth I, sat as judge at the trial of Mary, Queen of Scots.). They had a daughter, Mary Elizabeth Bell, married Daniel Belt (Bell). Mary and Daniel had a daughter named Mary (of course) who married Robert Beale.

Robert Beale was a dyer, a Worshipful Company, a Great Twelve. He and Mary had a daughter named Francis Beale. Our Francis...... Wonder how true this story is?

Also according to this same book, Mary Elizabeth Bell's son or husband, Daniel, was given a ring in 1657 from the will of Robert II Bell.

The Bells are an interesting family. And there are a lot of them. I believe the author of the book said there were 40 various spellings. Including Bell Beale Beele, Beal, Beall, Bale, etc. I believe I read it comes from the French "bel" which means handsome and is also middle English for a bell ringer or maker or someone who lived near a bell. As the author admits the children of Sir Robert Bell by Elizabeth Anderson are disputed. As a matter of fact, much of their genealogy is. I credit the author with being upfront about that. Regarding Francis Beale (Creech?), his only source listed is the book by James Milton Creech. Did he have other sources or just wanted another Bell descendant in America. There are a huge number of Bells. The source for the name would be very common. Bell ringers and the like. Supposedly some signs back then were shaped like a bell to draw attention. It has been surmised that someone who lived near a bell-shaped sign might be named Bell. And of course, some might be from Norman immigrants i.e. French speaking. Bells/Beales are found all over England and Scotland, even Ulster. Regarding our Francis. Back in the 70s when the Richard Creech story seems to appear, his wife's name is listed as unknown. Then it is surmised that it was Francis because Henry named his daughter Francis. Then I suppose it became Francis Beale after James Milton Creech published the altered Robert Bell 1757 will. Again, I surmise he did not know it had been doctored. But anyway, it appears that then people tried to connect people together just because they are all in the will. Of course, Francis (if she existed) is not in it nor Richard. If the Henry Creech, in the true will is, as seems evident, not our Henry Creech, in America, but rather the Henry Creech who was a fellow member of the Worshipful Company of Skinners with Robert Bell. The Henry Creech, Skinner, that served on the Cromwell government committee in 1649 and whose will was probated in England in 1665. Then there is no known connection between Robert Bell, or his relatives, or friends to our American Henry Creech. Of course, anything is possible. We might even someday find out that Henry Creech of the Worshipful Company of Skinners in London was our Henry's father. We really have no idea who was. Let's just be honest. Speaking honestly. I have argued in the past on the other side of the issue. But I have learned much since then.

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