Capt. Henry - Creeches, supposedly killer by Indians in James City. Help, oh, help.

Started by Private User on Thursday, April 13, 2017
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Update. You might want to look at the book "Sir Robert Bell and His Early Virginia Descendants" Supposedly the name Bell and the various forms of Beale are the same border clan/tribe. Spellings were fluent in those days.. Could be a half dozen ways to spell it. Even the owner of the name might spell it differently at various times. Anyway they were a border tribe with English and Scottish members. Due to crowding they began to move further into the countries. The Bells in this book seem to be living in the London area. Some even seem to have ties to the Jamestown Company. Anyway Frances Beale/Creech is listed as coming to Virginia in 1623. The boys supposably went to England to live with their uncle John after their parents were massacred. According to the book. Uncle John never went to Virginia but rather moved to Mass in the 1630s. I think we have eliminated Richard Crouch (muster of 1623). So we are left with Richard Critch arriving in 1635 in Virginia. If the boys were raised by uncle John then it was in Mass. On the other hand there are a couple John Bells related to Frances Critch who did come to Virginia. One even came sponsored by William Carter the same gentleman who Richard Critch was indentured to. Carter was land wealthy from the land he received for paying passage for people (at least 12 more than Richard). I assume all were indentured to him, I know Richard was. It is possible one of these Johns raised the boys. This would put the massacre in the 1640s, possibly the 1644 massacre. Of course this does not solve the Richard Critch/Crich question. My grandma always told me we were Scottish. David Bethune 8th of Creich had only 2 brothers according to Scottish sources. Robert the oldest died at age 20. And a younger brother William. Thus if Richard was a brother (also notice the family surname is Bethune not Creich), he was either expelled from the family or threw off the family name and ran away. Another possibility would be he was illegitimate Also at this time many commoners would take their place of origin as a surname if they moved elsewhere. Add to this the fact that there are at least 2 places in England called Creech (current spelling) plus another Creich Parish in Scotland and he could come from several places. Scottish or English. The records showing a tie between Richard Crich, William Carter, and John Bell give some credibility to James Milton Creech's Family History. The way he presents it implies he is passing on two very similar accounts of Richard back to back that he has received from two separate sources that are never given. Perhaps family bibles, which were for a long time transmitters of genealogy. There are obviously errors but a nugget of truth. Another foot note. While William Carter is referred to as Captain I have never found a ship he commanded. He was born in 1600 so I doubt he would have been old enough to have captained a ship in 1623. Also I have checked as many records as I could find. There seems to never have been a ship called the Journeyman that sailed to Virginia or anywhere else that is recorded. I have repeated much here that i posted before. But after much more research these seem to be the most accurate facts. But a new undiscovered fact constantly surprises me. So I will continue the quest. In the meantime I will cling to our family's "Scottish" roots till I discover iron clad evidence to the contrary. Truth after all is what genealogy is all about. A fairy tale would be so much easier.

Re: The records showing a tie between Richard Crich, William Carter, and John Bell give some credibility to James Milton Creech's Family History.

I would agree, those connections make sense.

I really enjoy your writing. Keep looking.

I am returning to this discussion started by Anne and Erica. About a year ago I anxiously feasted on every morsel of information I could find on the genealogy of the Creech family. I was given a family tree that started with David Bethune, 7th Laird of Creich. How exciting! But after hours and hours of research it appears to be "Urban Legend" I have read every issue of the publication "Creech Country" which was published in the 1990s and first decade of the 2000s. Plus, I have gone through the online discussion pages that dealt with Creech genealogy, such as Roots web and GenForum. There was no record of a Richard in the family in the 1600s. Only Robert, who died at 20 years old, His brother David, who became 8th Laird, and finally his brother William, 9th Laird In 1660s the estate was sold to James Bethune, Friar of Balfour, because there were no more male heirs in the Bethune family of Creich Parish. Of note, the family surname was Bethune. Laird of Creech was a title held by the oldest male member of the family. Family researchers have requested any documented evidence for the Bethune connection. But none was ever presented. Urban Legends seem to make up much of what you read in genealogy. I find them on both sides of my family. The same goes for the Richard Creich/Creech story of immigrating to Virginia and being killed by Indians. The Richard Crouch mentioned by James M. Creech was an English carpenter, born in 1686. In the 1623 Jamestown muster he is single. J.M. Creech says Richard was from Creich, Scotland. The best candidate would be Richard Creich, an indentured servant, brought over in 1635 without a wife... But there were very few single women in Virginia during this period. It was extremely rare for an indentured servant to marry as he would have to add years onto his servitude to get his master's permission, even if he could find a woman who would marry him. The books out there seem to be part sourced genealogical research, part theories (often without facts to base them on), and sometimes just wishful thinking. My grandmother, in the 1950s, ( my grandfather died 13 years before I was born) told me the Creeches we Scotch Irish, i.e. Scots who immigrated to Northern Ireland and then after a few generations moved to America. Rev. Oscar Creech (1886-1974 of Chowan College wrote in a bio in the mid 20th century that the Creeches were Scot-Irish. The Rev. John Dickey who pastored churches in Harlan County, Ky. from the 1870s till near the end of the century interviewed Elihu, Son of Elijah Creech born 1779. Elihu told Rev. Dickey the Creeches are Irish. I have seen recopies of this which say Scotch-Irish but the original is just Irish. (possibly at that time the Scotch Irish were referred to as Irish, maybe not. But the original says Irish). I have seen another Creech family genealogy where the old family historian said that the family descended from Elijah Creech of Lee County, VA and his father came from the "Emeral Isle" (i.e. Ireland). Another Creech family history claims 12 brothers arrived in the Carolinas from Scotland in the mid 1700s. Yet another family claims 13 brothers came from Scotland in the 1700s. I am sure there are many other stories out there. There definitely was more than one Creech that came to America over the years. Records are sparse for the colonial period. Censuses before 1850 do not mention names of all the family members. Birth, marriage, and death records are few for the period before 1850. Unless a family has meticulously maintained records genealogy is difficult if possible before the 1800s. Even then they sometimes contain conflicting information. Probates and land deeds and sales are the most common records. But often leave family members out or contain misspellings. Censuses that do exist often have errors. I have a relative on my mother's side that is in 3 consecutive censuses in the same county, 1860, 1870, 1880. His birthplace is different in each. IL, Ky., Va. It is definitely the same person. But for some reason it is recorded different each time. On a birth certificate for one of his children his birthplace is listed as Richmond, Virginia. Finally two records that say the same state. So genealogy is a tough game. Through hard work and lots of time we can possibly approximate our genealogy. But there are a lot of records nonexistent People who we may be descended from may not even be in the records.. If we latch onto a person who is not really an ancestor of ours we have created a totally false branch and probably our whole genealogy from there on is wrong. With this in mind. I am cautiously starting over. Much of what I previously posted to this discussion was just theory. Reading real genealogists like Marsil Creech, Ruby Ewart, Barry Creech, and especially Dr. Bill Caroll has opened my eyes. It is time for honest genealogy. I have completed a DNA test kit that includes Y dna testing. Hopefully it can help determine where my ancestors came from. It is being processed in England and because of the Covid complications there, it has been delayed. In the meantime I comb records and rack my brain. Anne Brannen started this discussion with good questions. Erica Howton added more. I would love to see a group of serious Creech genealogists use this discussion page to share ideas and new findings. God only knows what we might come up with.🤔

creich/Creech

James Michael Creech - what a brilliant post. I love the story of your journey into all names Creech, and one’s own ancestors.

PS. My late father thought we were mostly Irish, Scotch Irish. We are in fact a lot more English, although my Cunningham great great grandmother seemingly was born in three states (Alabama, Tennessee and Kentucky). I hope DNA is able to narrow it down a bit for you.

Thanks Erica. Even though I proofread my post 3 times I see I made another mistake. Richard Crouch was born in 1586 not 1686. I have cataracts and other eye problems so reading computers screens is sometimes tricky. But I am not afraid to screw up as long as I always get back up and brush myself off. And then plug on. I am impressed with some of the old genealogical discussion groups on the web. Although I have to admit that it looks like there were often periods of time when there would be months of inactivity. Many minds are better than one. I am retired and have time for this. But I remember working and raising a family with little time for anything else. So, if no one else joins this discussion, maybe I can at least leave a record of my mistakes and successes for another genealogist to build in the future. Just as others have done for us. Thanks, Erica, for the great work you do. And good luck in your genealogical searches in the future. P.s. I just found another ancestor, this time on my mother's side, with conflicting consecutive census birthplaces. .Ky one year and Va. 10 yrs. later. I found another one my mother's side. In the 1900 census my grandfather's brother Morton is recorded as Martin and listed as female. Perhaps the census taker just checked the wrong box. But it shows how unreliable even censuses can be.

On censuses, some things to keep in mind.

- sometimes the person didn’t move, the location did (i.e., renamed). Like West Virginia formed from Virginia, or towns in Vermont seemingly joining Canada for a while
- sometimes the person didn’t know themselves if their families moved around when they were young, so they’d take different shots at the question. Ditto if a householder was answering on behalf of his wife.
- and often enough the census taker was just sloppy.

I was working on a family where the census marshall for the district had enumeration responsibilities for his former mistress. Her age was totally different on the next census.:)

Thanks Erica. I am learning to be flexible with records. But I don't want to be reckless. Yet so often families back in the 1700s and 1800s used the same set of names over and over again for cousins in each generation. hard to keep track of who belongs where. Also, I am running into variations? of names on legal documents. I have Margret on a personal tax record in Virginia in 1845. She is listed on the 1850 census as Maggie in Virginia and Mary in the 1860 census in Arkansas. Children are the same and she remains a widow. My great great grandfather John bought property in Illinois in 1853. He died a couple years later. In a probate hearing 13 years later for his son Valentine's assets, who died in the Civil War, John's youngest children are appointed a guardian to represent them because their father, Jackson Creech, is deceased. A couple years later, their brother Elijah buys theirs and their brother John's undivided shares in that same piece of property. Thus John and Jackson are the same person. There is no other record of a Jackson Creech. Genealogy is definitely a complex puzzle. Especially before 1850 when censuses only mention the name of the head of the family. And there seem to be so few marriage, birth, and death records.

Particularly in the South, yes, vital records can be very skimpy. I am lucky that my Howtons are relatively late arrivers, and had some diligent great aunt types who did good pedigree work in the 1970s.

Yes, be thankful for family histories. My family is pretty well divided up. So I have no one to turn to. I do remember several years ago, there was a cousin in Oregon that was working on the Chrisman history. Supposedly my gg mother was Oklahoma Cherokee. Then later it was 1/2 Osage. But from my research she wasn't Native American at all. A relative had a DNA test done and it showed no Native American.

Yes, no native in my DNA tests either. I did find rejected Lawson applications from 1905, and I’m pretty sure where the “family tradition” comes from.

I think a lot of families who have been in America for a while want to believe they have Native roots. My wife's father claimed for years they had Cherokee in them. Then the family changed it to Maumee. From what I have heard of the family history I think not. Nor does my wife.

I just got word back that my DNA test failed because they couldn't get enough DNA from the swab. They are sending me a new kit and I will try again. They had just introduced a new kit before I got mine and there may be bugs to work out or I may have misunderstood the directions. I am not sure. I need to add another "legend" to the Creech family legends of our origins. I didn't post it before because I feel it was probably tongue in cheek. But I should be fair to the original poster and include it. According to this story two brothers (surnamed Creech) in Australia decided to move to Colonial America. They started from scratch and built a boat. They then sailed all the way to North America from Australia. Like I said it could have been written as a joke, I have found no documentation to base the story on and it seems a bit far-fetched. Perhaps the author felt that way about the Richard Creech stories. I don't know, but at least I tried to be fair to everyone. I am working on adding a post on the earliest known individuals in British America named Creech. Usually, we don't know their place of origin. But as point of interest if you search for individuals surnamed Creech in the 1700s the largest number living outside of British America are residents of England. At present I am still leaning toward Scotch or Scotch Irish, but I won't be surprised if my DNA comes back English. I would love to hear what other people's research has led them to. I am continually being surprised.🤓

I would like to chime in on this as I am a Creech descendant as well, from Harlan KY.

I contacted a geneaologist in Scotland couple of weeks ago. When I asked him about Creich Castle, the village, etc., he said Creich was not a noble family and there were no surnames during prior to 1800's. The surnames that were attached to a persons name, was actually the name of the village where they were from.

With that being said, it is unlikely that Creich, Creech, Scritch, etc are not even the actual surnames of our family history. Now, Creich is mentioned in history of Bethune family.

There are about 3 or more David Beaton/Bethunes from 1500 to 1650 in Scottish history. One of them was the son of Robert Beaton of Creich. This Robert had an older sister named Janet Beaton who married a Sir James Crichton.She is also the Sir Walter Scott's Wizard Lady of Branxholm in his narrative poem "Lay of the Last Minstrel". So this might be where the surname comes into play. The way the spelling is changed between generations. I have also heard a family lore that when Richard Creech came to America, he was forced to change the spelling of his family name at the time. Something having to do with the Church of England and the reformation.

Thanks Rose. You are right about surnames in the 1600s. Only aristocrats had them. When commoners began adopting surnames, a law was passed against them adopting the surname of their Lord. Regarding the Bethunes of Creich, my research finds in the 1600s Robert who was first in line to become the next Laird Creech died at age 20. So, his brother David became Laird Creich at their father's death. David had no male heirs so on his death his brother, I believe it was William Bethune (notice the family never uses Creich as a surname). Finally, because William had male heir, the castle, the title, and all privileges were sold to a cousin who was a Bethune, Lord of Balfour. Richard Creich who came in 1635 was an Indentured servant without a wife or family. No more is known about Richard after his arrival. Whether he lived long enough to work off his indenture, disease killed many. Some went back afterwards because life was so hard. If he stayed men far outnumbered women, so his chances of marriage were poor. Especially given his economic statis. There is a Willam Creech who built one of the earliest housed in Jamestown. We also know he was sued for slander. No one knows what happened to him. He disappears from the records too. A George Creech was kidnapped and taken to Virginia from England in the 1600s. The trial is on record in England. But there is no record of whether George was returned. (I know of one case where 2 men were kidnapped and sold into indenture. They ran away from their master. But the court made them return to the master, because they still had to work off what he had paid to indenture them, despite the fact they had been illegally kidnapped sold to him. There is record of a Nicholas Creech in 1640, but no further. A Richard Allin of Creech is recorded in the 1620s. Obviously, his last name was Allin. Richard Crouch who is on the Jamestown census in 1623 after the Massacre, has been proven to be from Houghton, England and born around 1586. As far as Henry goes there is a record of a land grant issued to Hollowell in 1682 for the transfer of Henry and his wife to Virginia. The transfer could have taken place a few years earlier as the claim could be used at a later date. Matter of fact, a Henry Creech swore in court aroun1675. There are also records of Creechs in Maryland. Creechs who went to Canada from Ireland, probably from Dorsett or Somerset before that. Some migrated into New England from Canada. Creechs appear to have moved directly to Mass., Me., and Rhode Island from Great Britain also. You write you descent from the Harlan County Creechs. We are related. John Creech is your ancestor. His brother, Elijah of Lee County, Virginia is my ancestor. Their father, Stephen, we share. Not to be confused with the alleged John Stephen who never existed but is a fusion of John Creech, who died in the 1780s and Stephen I have found several claims by their descendants that Stephen's ancestry was Scotch Irish. This follows along with what I was told as a child in the 1950s by my grandmother who was born in 1880s. But haven't found records to prove. Read old copies of "Creech Country". We really have no idea what Stephen's ancestry. I am still digging. Keep digging and let me know what you find.

Sorry. My wife had dinner ready and my computer kept freezing while I tried to quickly type my comments. Didn't proof read it. My major error was I left the impression that William Bethune had a male heir. Actually Neither he nor David had a male error. That was why the estate was sold. Money went to the daughters. Pardon the egg on my face😥

Curious fact. In Britain a barn owl is also called a screech owl. But the old name dating all the way back to the 1520s is scritch owl. If you look at many old records you will occasionally see people listed as Screech or Scritch. Sometimes even for a person who was previously listed as Creech. or later listed as Creech. Remember this was a verbal society with heavy accents rather than a literate one with mass media to create uniformity of pronunciation or spelling. Just wondering 🤔

David did not have a son, so on his death in 1579 his brother Mr James Beaton became the keeper of Falkland Palace.

In December 1599 his grandson David Beaton, apparent of Creich, was declared a rebel and his house or fortalice at Dunbog was placed in the keeping of James Wemyss of Bogy. This was in connection with the murder in 1598 of John Murray, a servant of Lord Lindores, by John Arnot, Goodman of Woodmill.

On 15 September 1602 James Beaton and his son David Beaton agreed to resign the keeping of Falkland Palace and their lands of Darno in Fife to the crown. In exchange the Beatons were given the lands of Nether Byres and Urquharts, and the pasturage on the Lomond Hills.

This is what I had found on Wikipedia. It goes on but the only William I have seen through the lines is the David Bethune/Beaton VI brother is William 9th Laird of Creich.

Thanks, Rose. I had read that the David had had lands taken away and the family received different land later. But I didn't know the details. Yes, William was David and Robert's youngest brother. The point was there was only 3 brothers. So Richard Creich was not a member of the Bethune family. Maybe a farmer on their lands. Maybe an English farmer from Dorset or Somerset. We don't really have any idea where. My DNA is from all over England and Scotland. Even could be Scotch Irish. But doesn't seem to be Norman, which is what the Bethunes were. Good job‼️. Keep digging 🤓

James, Sadly, I can not find a son named William with brothers Robert and David. The following is what I read via Wikipedia:

John Beaton of Creich (born 1495) was a Scottish landowner and courtier.
His father, David Beaton, (1466-1505) was treasurer of Scotland for James IV. His mother was Jean Duddingston. His home was Creich Castle. His surname was also spelled "Bethune" or "Betoun".

He married Janet Hay, a daughter of John Hay, Provost of Dundee. Their children included:
-Janet Beaton (1519–1569)
-Robert Beaton of Creich (d. 1567)
-Christian Beaton, who married Michael Balfour of Burleigh (d. 1577)
-Margaret Beaton, who married Arthur Forbes of Reres (d. 1586), and was a companion of Mary, Queen of Scots, known as "Lady Reres"
-Grisel Beaton, who married (1) William Scott of Kirkurd, younger of Buccleuch, (2) Andrew Murray of Black Barony. Regent Arran contributed to her dowry.[3] She was the mother of Walter Scott, 4th Baron of Buccleuch, Janet Scott, Lady Ferniehirst, and Gideon

John's son, Robert married Jeanne de la Rainville, or Delareynveil (d. 1576), a French lady-in-waiting to Mary of Guise. Her name at that time seems also to be recorded as "Jehanne Gresmor" or "Gresoner", and perhaps adding to confusion, it seems that both mother and daughter were members of the household of Mary of Guise. "Madame Gresinor" made passementerie from gold thread. James V gave Jeanne a dowry and bought her a red velvet gown and a white velvet kirtle or skirt lined with yellow taffeta. The wedding was held at St Andrews. The royal wardrobe servant George Steill bound up twelve tapestries with scenes of the History of Aeneas with cords and carried them from Edinburgh to decorate the venue.

Jeanne Delareynveil died at the Place of Dunbog in 1576. Their children included:
-David Beaton of Creich, who married Beatrix Leslie, daughter of George Leslie, 4th Earl of Rothes of Ballinbreich Castle.
-James Beaton of Creich, Parson of Old Roxburghe. who married Helen Leslie of Kinnaird, Fife, widow of the Edinburgh merchant James Baron and James Kirkcaldy (d. 1573) brother of William Kirkcaldy of Grange, and secondly married Margaret Wemyss daughter of David Wemyss of Wemyss Castle.
-Mary Beaton, companion of Mary, Queen of Scots, who married Alexander Ogilvy of Boyne.
-Lucrece Beaton, who married (1) David Beaton of Melgund, Andrew Wishart of Mylneden.
-Elizabeth Beaton, who married James Sandilands of St Monans.
-Christian Beaton.
-Anna Beaton.

Robert's son David married Beatrix Leslie, daughter of George Leslie, 4th Earl of Rothes of Ballinbreich Castle. Their children included:
-Agnes Beaton, who in 1580 married Sir James Chisholm of Cromlix.

With this David, is the story I spoke of earlier about being labeled as a rebel and his brother James inherited everything. As stated earlier, I have not found a mention of a William as a brother to David. The William I have found is the brother-in-law to Helen Leslie of Kinnaird, wife of James Beaton of Creich (mentioned directly above as son of Robert).

Since there was the joining of the crowns, the civil war, and so forth during the late 1590's to early 1600's, could it be possible Richard Creich was in fact a real person. It would make sense, somewhat. He could have been sent away to the new world to marry and start a family to regain the family name and status.

Could we also be looking in the wrong place? I have heard of Creech being in Dorsetshire Somerset from a genealogist so I'm curious about this as well.

Also on the list of those killed during the 1622 massacre, Richard Crouch is listed as "In the Maine". https://www.jamestowne.org/1623-lists-of-living--dead.html for that list.

I left out an important name. Captain Henry Creyke. Henry was born in 1837 and died about 1684. It is believed that this is the source of the Captain Henry Creech legend in James Milton Creech's book. He was the captain of a merchant ship in Virginia. But records show he died childless and left his possessions to his wife Alice Corbin and her children from an earlier marriage. James M. Creech in his book also refers to Robert Bell's will (1656) in which he refers to a Captain Henry Creech as a kinsman in America. But the actual will states Captain Henry Creech was a friend and doesn't say he was in America. Bell lived in London and dealt in furs. As a matter of fact there is another captain in the list of friends. Creech's book also mentioned a granddaughter. But none is in the actual will. As a matter of fact. Bell died childless. I am not accusing J.M. Creech of falsifying some facts. But he definitely got ahold of some wrong information. And made some wrong assumptions..

https://electricscotland.com/history/nation/bethune.htm. This site among others mentions William as the brother of Robert and David. And as the last of the family to own Creich Castle. As far as the family sending Richard Creich to America. Many noble men did send younger sons to America to make a name for themselves. But not as indentured servants. Instead they financially backed them. Regarding Richard Crouch. http://genealogytrails.com/vir/emmigrants.html. You find him listed in here from England. A carpenter born about 1586. Also if you look at the 1623 list of the living and the dead created after the massacre, Richard Crouch doesn't have a wife or family

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bethune_of_Creich Here is mentioned in Wikipedia of William being younger brother to David Bethune

Sorry it has taken so long to respond

I see why I must have overlooked that William. The Laird of Creich ended with him. After that, it seems the family become "of Balfour" with Creich as surname.

As for the indentured servant: I wonder if maybe they owed some sort of debt for what had transpired in previous years so a son was sent to the new world to pay off that debt. If that was the case, it would make some sort of sense.

Did some more digging.

There is a Richard Critch, age 27, on the 1635 Transport to London immigration list. This would make more sense if Henry was 9 years old at the time of the parents deaths as he would have been 9 if the attack that occurred in 1644 was when they were killed.

After going back through and reading the discussion a bit more, I see the above was already mentioned.

I would like to also add, never go by census records. Why? When a census taker would stop by each residence and take, well census, if there was a person there who was not attached to that home, the taker would add them to that family. For example: Johnny goes to James house to play for an hour. A census taker shows up, takes census, adds Johnny to that family's household. Now Johnny is listed on their record. Census stops by Johnny's actual home. Johnny isn't home, and is not added to his families list.

I am also doubtful on documents now. I found a marriage license on FamilySearch for my father to a woman who is not my mother and no one in my family knows the woman. My great grandmothers name is listed as the mother, my grandfather is listed as father, my father's dob is correct, etc. But, here is the kicker, the date of marriage is incorrect as he was married to my mother at that time. I contacted FamilySearch to inquire about the record and they stated I would have to contact the State of Virginia's Vital Records to get the record removed. The state refused to do so as at the time my father was living but he passed literally a week later.

Anyways, back to Richard, Frances, and Henry............ Website https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/indentured-servants-in-col... states, " One hundred “yong Maides” were sent to “make wives for these Tenants,” and one hundred boys to serve as apprentices." I wonder if maybe Francis/Mary was sent to the new world to become a wife for a Tenant but became a wife for Richard instead? Maybe Richard had to change his surname because of this to not bring harm to his family back in England/Scotland?

Good Job digging! A few years ago I was given a printout of an Ancestry.com Tree for our family by a relative. Being from a well-known genealogy company I tucked it away as gospel truth. After I retired, I began to research the tree to get to know all about the people on it. I have always loved history. But then I found a conflict. Some people didn't match each other in the 1800s. Right family but wrong connections. So, I dug deeper and deeper. I found James Milton Creech's book. Then a couple by people who had actually visited Scotland and traced the family to Creich Castle and the Bethunes/Beatons. James Milton had stated we were descended from the local Picts, an ancient and noble Celtic tribe. But soon I found writers claiming we were of Norman ancestry. The Bethunes had come to Britain with William the Conqueror in 1066. Of course, this meant we were related to Cardinal Beaton (Bethune is the old French spelling) who ordered the burning of Scottish protestants at the stake. And would stand on his balcony and watch. Eventually he was assassinated. But every family has one bad apple. The Beatons had their occasional problems but were able to hang on to their titles and lands for centuries afterwards. There is no evidence they were being persecuted in the 1600s. I was all exciting! I began to search for the ship, The Journeyman, that James Milton Creech said Richard came over on. But there is no record of such a ship ever existing or being registered in Britain. Richard Crouch as I said turned out in records as being an English Carpenter born in 1586. But there was Richard Crich who came to America in 1637, indentured to William Carter. But he had no family at the time. And we have absolutely no record of him past 1837. Nor of an Indian attack in 1644. Nicholas said to be Richard's son, is found in a district census in 1640. He is listed alone and about 21 years old. No record of him before or after. But he definitely would be much older than 11 in 1644 if there was a massacre. Wife says supper is ready. Will continue tomorrow. 🤓

The truth is no one knows anything about Richard or Nicholas. No records exist. Were they Scotch or English?. Unknown. Did they marry? Unknown. It is said about 30 percent of immigrants from Britain during this period are not even recorded. The editors of Creech Country quarterly repeatedly asked for evidence to back the Richard story. Even reaching out to the authors of the books. Having members search for evidence. Nothing was ever found. Nothing to connect the American Creech's to the Beatons. Nothing to show Richard ever had a family. There is documentation that reveals Henry came to America as an adult with wife. But we don't know where he came from or exactly when. Just know he was here in 1675. I was reading a genealogist the other day. He stated .... Beware there are hundreds of books out there with out documentation claiming fantastic connections people of the past. Without any evidence to support their claims. Then often times the rest of the book is filled with poorly researched genealogies. I am not claiming the Creech books are false. Only they have not shown their documented evidence. If they are just theories they should so state and the basis of the theory. We know that the Bell will in the James Milton Creech' book has been altered from the original document. Perhaps that was the way he received it and he never knew it. But the true will removes the basis for many of his claims. I have been guilty of trying to make connections to fill gaps myself. In an earlier discussion I wrote a long piece on why the Captain Creech story could be true. Carter indentured Richard to Virginia. Carter later indentured a Bell to Virginia. Carter's grave says Captain William Carter. Perhaps Carter had Henry take over his ship when he retired. Perhaps Bell (It is claimed Beale and Bell is often the same name) was related the Francis Beale who married, supposedly, Richard. Part of this is founded on the now disproven parts of the will. I did a lot of hypothesizing to get there. The fact is it was just a guess. I am not accusing anyone of intentionally misleading anyone. These other sources unless they can produce evidence to back up their stories are also just hypothesis.. I would love it if they prove their story. So many questions would be answered. Maybe they have and I just haven't seen it. If so I apologize. Anne early in this discussion mentioned the weakness of the early Creech story. Creech Country had a motto that went something like this. "Is it our goal to get done quick or get it done right?". I am afraid that I in haste added unprovable connections to my tree. I didn't check every suggested merge. Not everything will be totally provable, but there should be at least enough documented evidence to justify a conclusion.

Wow!! Rose, what a story about your ancestor's marriage record. Were you looking at a transcript or a photocopy of the document. It can make a lot of difference. My gg grandfather on my mother's side got married in Kentucky in the 1850s. I have seen two different transcripts of the record. One said he was the groom and the other said it was his cousin. Morton and Logan. Actually, it was my gg grandfather. His cousin married a lady in Arkansas with a different name. Gg grandpa was married till she died about 1892. One thing you have to watch in old records is middle and nicknames. I have an ancestor named Francis Marion. Different records list him as Francis, Frank, or Marion. My gg grandpa John was on the 1840 Lee, Va census, posted a bond for his brother's probate, and bought land in Illinois as John. He died before the Civil War. When one of his sons died in the war, the son's estate was probated. A guardian was appointed to represent my g grandpa and his sister, as they were under 21. They were listed as the minor children of Jackson Creech, deceased. Land sales later reveal they had inherited the same piece of property that John had bought. Thus, John and Jackson were one and the same. I looked up on Wikipedia and it said Jack was a nickname for John going back to the Middle Ages. Then the funny thing was when great grandpa's sister died several years later. The death certificate had her mother right, but her father was listed as Jackson Couch. Obviously, whoever gave the info didn't remember correctly. Since they never met him, I guess we can forgive them. You are right censuses are prone to errors. The early census did ask who was in the house that day. And one thing that made it really bad is that it often took a year to complete the census. So, imagine a census taker asked you who was in your house on the official date of the census which might have been 11 or 12 months earlier. Later census just recorded family members and boarders. You can look up the instructions to the takers online for each census. But even so there was a lot of sloppy censuses taking. I am pretty sure there is a 1900 census in Mississippi that has my great uncle listed as a girl. Everything else matches the family. Good luck with your adventures in genealogy. It can be frustrating. But if you love a challenge, it can become addicting. :)

James, I was looking at actual photocopies. They listed my great grandmother's middle name instead of her first and my grandfather's name is abbreviated. My great grandmother is listed as Jane instead of Sarah Jane and my great grandfather Jackson (listed as Jack) is for the father.

Another thing, is that in Kentucky, prior to 1940, records were not mandatory. So most of the records we research is what the citizens provided to the state or kept in family bibles/family lore then written down and were certified by the state. Also, some certificates will have Delayed stamped on them which prevented some from ever getting a certificate with all information. In order to get those, the person the certificate was made for, would have to see a judge with valid proof of identity to get that record released. For example, my maternal grandmother was born in Tennessee but died in Kentucky. Her birth cert has delayed on it. In order for me or my mother to get a copy of that cert, my grandmother would have had to see a judge to release a copy. Since she is dead, we would have to wait 50 years for a statue of limitations to pass before I, myself, can send for a copy as I am not next of kin.

I'm still trying to dig into Henry and Richard both. Not 24/7 like I could do, but every once in a bit.With so many documents out there that are fake, I'm unsure of what to trust anymore. I swear, its like they didn't want their history to be known.

Good luck with your adventures in genealogy. Hopefully, we can get the Creech line sorted.

Just where did the Creeches come from? Creech seems to appear in Dorsett and Somerset England than anywhere. There is a group of in Cananda and New England that claim roots to the Cork, Ireland area, after the families migrated from England. The oldest oral histories from the Virginia, North Carolina, Kentucky, and Tennessee Creech family variously claim Scotland or Scotch Irish linages. My family oral history claims Scotch Irish. So, the question is were there individuals in Scotland in the 1600s with the name Creech. This is important if we are trying to tie Henry Creech to Scotland. But it is also important if we are claiming a Scotch Irish heritage. The great mass of the Scotch Irish migration occurred in the middle of the 1700s. But those families had migrated to Northern Ireland in the 1600s. Here is what I have found using Records on the Family Search website. Lowrance Creach, marriage 1661, Abbotshall, Fife, 1661 John Creache, marriage 1663, Torryburn, Fife. John Craiche, marriage 1638, Clamannan, Clamannanshire. Jannet, Craiche, marriage 1663, Alloa, Clackmannanshire. Margaret Craiche, marriage 1651, Culross, Perthshire. Margret Creache, marriage 1659, Torryburn, Fife. Issobell Creach, christening 1630, Canongate, Midlothian. Helen Craiche, christening 1641, Perth, Perthshire. Margaret Craiche, christening 1627. Clackmannan, Clackmannanshire. Elspit Craiche, christening 1647, Culross, Perthshire. James Craiche, christening 1652, Culross, Perthshire. Jonet Craiche, christening 1653, Culross, Perthshire. Robert Craiche, christening, 1627, Clackmannan, Clackmannan. John Craiche, christening, Dunfermline, Fife. I only included individuals from the period before Henry probably arrived in Virginia. The individuals listed also had parents listed with the same last name. Thus, the name goes back a generation before. I included variants of the name, as did Family Search, because spellings varied greatly in those days and pronunciations were vastly different than now. So, these are all possible variations. This does not imply any ancestral connection to American Creeches, but rather evidence that there were people bearing the Creech or similar names in Scotland at this period of time. There are many more names listed after these dates. Whether we will ever prove our ancestry remains to be seen. Here is my source.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&q.a...

At this point, I am just ready to say, " We don't know where we came from". Has anyone thought to look up Henry's wife and see if she had any documents that mention him or his parents?

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