Rodulf & Ubba

If you don't have the patience to read the entire article, you might enjoy this brief review:
http://www.medievalists.net/2017/03/rodulf-ubba-search-frisian-dani...

Interesting read. Thankyou

Interesting, and intriguing, would very much like to hear your opinions of the Frisians
as depicted in the great epic Beowulf.

Thank you as always Justin in sharing some wonderful reading for us out here in the hinterlands of genealogy.

I've been thinking all afternoon about whether I personally have an opinion about the Frisians in Beowulf. I don't, really. I'd be curious what other people think.

My general style with all of this is that I enjoy the story. No judgment. And I truly love different theories, even the very outlandish. But I don't like to convert any of into facts unless I have to. I'd much rather wait to hear more ideas and theories.

In Beowulf, something I really love is the background that shows the Danes, Swedes, Geats, and Frisians all operating in the same cultural sphere. I'd like to think that much of it is real.

And, I'd like to think my ancestors from Östergötland were Geats (but scholars don't all agree about that). I have a nephew named Beowulf. I tell people it's an old family name ;)

Hi Justin!

Perhaps you might think these links are interesting. If you could translate the text, just(in)

http://wadbring.com/historia/sidor/keng.htm#beowulf

http://wadbring.com/historia/undersidor/askekarr.htm#ornasberget

http://wadbring.com/historia/undersidor/skalunda.htm#hog

It is really an Indiana Jones thing still to discover. If we relay the geographical pussle we could find it. Note that Skalundahögen for example is not yet dug out by archeologists. ( It could disturb the theory by wich the nationalstate is created upon, or similar...)

Johan

Justin Swanström, when I first read Beowulf as a youth, it seemed to be about conflict
with the auxiliary military of Roman Britain (Grendell), and the destruction of Roman authority in Britain (Grendell's mother). I can believe that an earlier and somewhat different version probaly existed, perhaps many. If so, then I'm sure that the episode recounting the battle of Finnsburg was included, and probably exactly as in our version. The scop's narration of the battle between Hnaef and Finn and Hengist, is the key to understanding what was going on in that era between these peoples. I feel certain of that.
Our version of Beowulf is probably Danish war propaganda, that uses an older but similar story frame to encourage the Danish invaders.

The most interesting part of Beowulf, (to me anyways), is the recounting of the battle
of Finnsburg (the Frisian episode). I believe that the key to everything in Beowulf, and in that entire region during the collapse of Roman power, is in the Frisian story.
It is the oldest and most genuine piece of the entire narrative..

That's my opinion, for what it's worth.

Thank you for the links Johan Lindqvist

You are welcome. Here is another:

http://wadbring.com/historia/

If you click on forntid/vikingatid and then gefionmyten. You will see probability of the Skilfingarna (Ynglingaätten) moved to Västergötland. (Not the area around Stockholm of today) And then later to Norway ( Bohuslän is the closest )

Which means the "Svear" is also from Västergötland. Beowulfs fathers side.

Svealand of today is something else.

See Var låg Uppsala.

"Adam of Bremen wrote that the temple was called ubsola
If Adam did not write that the temple was in Uppsala, but it was called ubsola, it would be in the middle of sveonernas country in a hilly countryside south of Värmland and Finnedi - which disqualifies this Uppland completely. He also wrote that it ubsola nearby Birka is götarnas city.

Upland Upland name was not until the year 1296
If Uppland in the 1000's was called Tiundaland, Attundaland and Fjärdhundraland it is not obvious that, for example, the legend of the Ale uppländske refers to Uppland - Ale which was defeated by Adil on Vänern ice whereupon his men rode home to his Upsalir. No note was made of the problems of getting through Tiveden and Västmanland. Upsalir is furthermore a plural form and is taken to mean 'halls up there'. Then fit Kinnekulle with their Little and Great Hall better into the puzzle, there is 'halls up there'. Yet the fall of 1297 wrote King Birger Magnusson the three small lands north of Lake Mälaren "tiundiam, attundiam & fiædrundiam", not "Linne".

Svealand Svealand name was not until the 1400s
If Svealand in the 1000's was called Nordan Skog so is not likely to Mälardalen was Sveas central settlement. Procopius mentioned in 500's, no Svear as he counted out thirteen people in Thule - Scandinavia. The samtide Jordanes mentioned 'suehans' associated with Skrid Finns and 'suethidi' in connection with 'Danes'.

Fyrisån Fyrisån name was not until the 1600s
If Fyrisån in the 900's name was Salaån it is not entirely clear that it was on these shores that Erik the Victorious fought with Styrbjorn Starke.
And why called Salaån not Uppsalaån? About Uppsala named Sala before it changed its name to Up-Sala would explain why Salaån named as it did.

Svear does Swedes and not exclusively people in Mälardalen
Already in the 100's, wrote Tacitus that "Out in the ocean is svionernas communities" and continued the description of the sun on the other side of svionerna shimmering seen in the sea - hence realize that this sea is located in the west and should have been the North Sea or Norwegian sea, not the Baltic sea.

If not Gamla Uppsala was the king's seat does not need Björkö in Lake Mälaren be the place for Ansgar's meeting with the Swedish king."

If we have a similar approach to the mystery of Ragnar Lodbrok and perhaps also Gånge-Rolf ( rollo ) we could get similar answers.

Thank you Johan Lindqvist for the link to the Bengan History, which seems to be an excellent, or at least, an interesting resource.
Sorry to have to disagree with you, but you posted that { "Fyrisån Fyrisån name was not until the 1600s"},

the Frisians were well known and documented by the Romans as early as the first century B.C., and refered to as "Frisians" by the Romans.

Frisians participated as auxiliaries of Rome when she invaded Britain the second time in 43 A.D. under Claudius.

They also were involved in the Batavi revolt in 70 A.D.

In the mid 2nd century Rome began forcibly reseteling Frisians to what is now
known as Kent, in Britain, among other places in south east Britain.

Later they were over run by the Saxons, and those who remained free, only did
so in the marshes and Islands of Frisia. This was probably the beginning of the
"Angle/Saxon" invasion, which was really an Angle/Frisian invasion.

Then the Franks began pressuring them from the south and west,

One of the things that happens when you immerse yourself in historic texts is that you get an appreciation for the different opinions people have had about particular texts. And, maybe you get a little bit skeptical of all of them, because they seem to say more about the people spinning the theories than they say about the text.

At different points in the last few hundred years, people have argued:
- Beowulf is a real story
- No, Beowulf is a myth, a re-telling in "more modern" form of much older stories that were originally the myth of a shadowy god named Beaw
- No, Beowulf is composed on mythic elements but the story combines different myths into a new creation
- No, Beowulf is an allegory for the perils of mankind against hostile natural forces
- No, Beowulf is an allegory for the perils of a Christian soul against the pagans
-,No, Beowulf is a purely literary creation written as Danish propaganda
- No, Beowulf is a literary creation but it was written to shape the cultural identity of the English
- No, Beowulf is an old folk tale, probably composed of elements of other stories that are now lost, and probably there were many variant versions that are now lost

On and on.

It's a very recent and very modern idea that the story of Beowulf might preserve pieces of an older world that we might be able to explore by looking at place names, and character names, and descriptions of distances and relationships.

Then, once there is an idea that there is information that could be excavated, the theories explode. Some place in the story is really this other modern place. Some person in the story is really a person we know from another source. Move the date and place of the story around a bit and you can get just about anything you want.

If you think there is some kind of hidden information in the poem, the whole thing becomes a huge treasure hunt. Everyone argues a pet theory, but no one convinces anyone else.

That's why I'm pretty much an agnostic on all the theories. I love them. Love reading them. Love thinking about them. And I don't believe a single word of any of them ;)

Sure. Agree with Justin ofcourse. And Interesting point about Frisian involvement. But it seems the story is about people in Scandinavia somehow. And there is this Ynlingaätt - line back in time which also suits with Beowulf characters.

In Sweden it is apparantly seen as too long time ago to be "real" only mythologic. but in Norway they see it still as their line. As we see the line as true to perhaps around 900 - 1000 - or similar..

there is a probability that the area of Västergötland has had this "culture" - thats also where the really old stuff is compared to other parts of Scandinavia. Such as the megaliths - a civilisation was there early.. the rich plains of Västergötland also got wealth - just as in Denmark compared to lets say Norway.

They have found tremendous amounts of gold in Västergötland. And they have burial grounds of invasion armies from the south.. by the way - almost all Danish armies has tried to go through Västergötland and try to conquer Sweden ( which must be seen as a federation at this time? ) Where Västergötland - att this time is 10- 2 in power strength towards for example other large areas such as Östergötland. By the way Östergötland seems related to Västergötland and later they were cooperating a lot, but not until Västergötland clans "won" against those located in Östergötland. See Sverker and Erikar.. in the 1200 hundreds.. Beowulf was earlier ofcourse.

So, if we have one of these theories which can be checked in different ways it seemes as we should search for more data - we can start to excavate lots of graves ... !?

Call BBC - it must be in their interest to make a series about this ... they have budgets.. (if they can spend money on a program like topgear)

http://www.finnestorp.se/?page_id=69

http://mis.historiska.se/mis/sok/resultat_bild.asp?lokalid=8504&amp...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hr%C3%B3lfr_Kraki

They have the recent 10-15 yrs been diiging out a place called Finnestorp ( link Above )

Interesting things..

Sure, Wiliam. What I menat was that the Svealand of today was named Svealand until very late. It is not the same as or exlusively the area of th Swedes. And Fyrisån is an example of that.

And if you read about Beuwulf here :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf

there are examples of graves of Ohthere for example. But these three graves near Uppsala (which was named Aros - not Uppsala before) - Is not the graves of Beowulf. It is a nationalstate missconception - it not true, it is false.. they found artifacts of women in those ones.. they must be finnish or estoniean or similar.. where they had a matriarc.. !? they only find data up there which suits a theory they have. It is tottally theoryimpregnated. They takes the storys of the sagas and take them into new geographical areas.. this old ideas helped Sweden as a state... and fake nation.. you know what i mean?

today real researchers know this.. the Svealand theory or what ever it is called is getting more and more abandoned. Even if many still cling on to it. Even the Riksantikvarieämbetet. . . National Heritage Board

There is a little area in Östergötland where many of the places name have a god connection. I'd have to go look again but they are things like Friggestorp. I don't know how old the names are but I think there are too many to be a coincidence. It could have been an ancient cult center. But it's not big enough to have been a major center, I don't think.

That makes me think there is something real about your Västergötland theory. Maybe it's related to Beowulf, or maybe it isn't. I don't have an opinion about that. But it seems plausible that Västergötland had a major cult center.

(I still think the episode with Finn, is the key to the whole puzzle)

What is it you think is the puzzle and what is key to solving it?

I might be making this too complicated. I'm thinking about a famous translation problem. It's not entirely clear who the Danes are fighting. Jutes? Frisians? Giants? And aren't the Danes themselves actually Jutes?

When you've read all the arguments, you might walk away thinking you have the answer, but for me, I walk away thinking the answer depends mostly on what you want to think.

Then there is also another problem, of whether the two parts of Beowulf were really originally part of the same story or whether two different stories, perhaps from widely different periods, have been welded together. (I suspect you might argue in favor of this idea.)

I think it's reasonable to read it as you do, as a story about the collapse of Roman authority in Frisia, but I don't think that's the only reasonable reading.

The puzzle is the truth about the epic poem, the truth about that historic era, and the truth about all the events that led up to writing the poem. History, is a puzzle.

When I was a youngster, I thought Beowulf was about the collapse of Roman authority in Britain and in the north in general.I still believe that it is about invasion and immigration, not of individuals, but of entire tribes.

Tolkien proved through linguistics, that many, if not most of the "Angle/Saxon" place names in Britain were not Saxon, but actually Frisian. It was an "Angle/Frisian" invasion.

I believe this poem indicates a power struggle for control of the new Germanic colonies in Britain, and also of the older ones as well.

If you accept that Hengest here is the same as Hengest there, then that's a very sensible interpretation. But not everyone agrees.

Tolkien's ideas fell out of favor for a generation, now they're back. At least to some extent.

It often surprises me how many Danes have DNA matches in England and Frisia. I haven't made a formal study so it's just my own anecdotal evidence. For example, my husband's grandparents came to the US from Jutland about 1918, but his yDNA matches are all either very, very close or they're in southeastern England with a common ancestor about a 1000 or 1500 years ago.

Let BBC make a sophisticated puzzle and excavate Skalundahögen to begin with. Many more things and graves after that. It will lead to an unvinding of (not the deep state perhaps, hehe) but for sure many questions.

Justin Swanström, I'm not surprised that Danes have a lot of DNA matches with men in
south eastern England. I think that's parr for the course.

And of course one has to bear in mind that the Friesian Islands extend all along the
northern shore of western Germany, and right up along the Jutland peninsula, so perhaps the Danish matches with Friesians is not so extraordinary, Those "Danes"
could actually be the descendants of Friesians that went native (lol)

Johan Lindqvist , i'm always in favor of scientific archealogical excavations, everywhere

The surprise on the DNA matches is not that they exist. It's that there is often no middle ground ;)

Middle ground?
Do u mean they are either close match or no match. Does that imply a lack of intermarriage or...?

I mean that they often have only very close and very distant matches, without much in between.

It gives the impression if a family stayed in Denmark they didn't really leave as many descendants as their cousins who went to England.

Of course, that might be an artifact of a low level of DNA testing in Scandinavia, but my impression is that it's not low at all, and if it is it's not THAT low.

Thank you Justin Swanström, for giving us something interesting to think about

(sounds like a population migration to me, entire towns or clans etc. emigrating together)

Could be. I haven't ever sat down to quantify it or consider different theories. It's almost inevitable, I think, that someone, someday will do that.