Sólveig Jónsdóttir - Sólveig Jónsdóttir

Couldn't you have posted this one instead for this thread? Sólveig Jónsdóttir

It was the Norwegian historian Gustav Storm who claimed that a daughter of Jón Loftsson was married to Asbjörn Jonsson Drotning but he didn't name her, and yes, we have discussed it here on Geni before. https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Storm

@Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson - And this historian you mention has reviewed the inheritance side of the children of Jón Loftsson? Solveig Jonsdottir, daughter of Jón and Halldóra is my ancestor in many ways (more than once) and she married to Guðmundur "grís" Ásmundsson - they both are my ancestors.

In their times here in Iceland, people of their standard and social status had ALL of their wealth and assets more or less listed in their names, and after their death their beneficiaries had to be approved as lawful beneficiaries to their inheritance.

There is NO mentioning of a second Solveig Jónsdóttir who had ANY connections to this Ásbjörn Jónsson Drotning that inherited Jón Loftsson or his wife Halldóra Brandsdóttir. Furthermore - NO children of Solveig Jónsdóttir, daughter of Jón Loftsson and this Asbjörn Jonsson Drotning you mention are mentioned as her beneficiaries nor did they inherit any of her many assets and certainly none of her wealth after her death.

The fact that you are trying to establish this connection by referring to this long dead (died 1903) historian you mention doesn't proof any claims that Solveig Jónsdóttir, daughter of Jón Loftsson did marry this Asbjörn Jónsson Drotning. You must be confusing her with some other woman that bore the same name - or not. - Further more - in this Wikipedia link you show us, there is NO MENTIONING of this claim you are referring to.

Please disconnect this person from my ancestors Jón Loftsson and his wife Halldóra Brandsdóttir - or we will do it for you.

@Ulf Göte Martinsson! - Furthermore - NO descendant's, husband, inlaws or other relatives of a Sólveig Jónsdóttir in Norway seem to be mentioned as beneficiaries of Jón Loftsson and his wife Halldóra Brandsdóttir if this Sólveig Jónsdóttir was in fact a daughter of Jón and Halldóra who "seems to have died" before Jón as you so blatantly put into my comment on the profile of this Sólveig. If you are so sure of this - bring on the sources that prove your claim.

Furthermore - mostly ALL of the illegitimate children of Jón Loftsson where adopted by Jón so they could inherit their father. If not adopted - they received assets as a gift before Jón's death.

Small note! - NOR a Sólveig Jónsdóttir in Sweden has ever been listed as a daughter of Jón Loftsson.

Private User Wrote, "The fact that you are trying to establish this connection", keep in mind, or try to possible absorb, that I haven't done this connection, I have not seen the actual sources that he might have had when he came to that conclusion, and her name wasn't Solveig either, so just try to not blame me at all. Secondly, if she ever did exist and if she actually died before her father, what would she inherit from him?

The reason that she exist her on Geni is because of that mentioned historian, the name is most likely a result of peoples confusion, nevertheless, until someone can revise his work properly, I don't mind having her set up as a daughter of Jon Loftsson, but if you feel upset because of that, you might take on yourself to be the one who orders his work and actually goes thru it.

@Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson - I am not upset because this profile is connected to my tree. But she does not belong to this family, trust me. And you haven't pointed out the source this historian of yours used to put out his theory.

IF you want to check this out for yourself that there only existed one Sólveig Jónsdóttir, daughter of Jón Loftsson - you can alwais take a trip to Iceland and visit the Arkives and try to find this fact out for yourself. And good luck in reading the many hundred of years old manuscripts written either in Latin og Icelandic.

Kopplingen är gjord av honom, alla kan förvisso göra fel, men han var känd för att vara mycket källkritisk, "Storm var professor i Kristiania från 1877. Han var strängt källkritisk och anses ha lagt en vetenskaplig grund för kunskap om "sagatiden". Han var den förste redaktören för "Arkiv för nordisk filologi" (1883–1888)."
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Storm så med det sagt, där är upphovsmannen och återigen, hon namngavs inte!

Feel free to use Goggle translate or whatever, if you don't understand modern Nordic languages.

@Ulf Ingvar Göte Maritnsson - you haven't providet the source you are talking about and this historian of yours supposedly based his theory on. And like all of us - he must have been human and made mistakes.

What ever you sayt - klaim or wish for - there only existed ONE Sólveig Jónsdóttir, daughter of Jón Loftsson and is so duly noted in our sources over here in Iceland. And many scolars, both Icelandic and foreign, have researched this family and none of them have come up with the second Sólveig Jónsdóttir.

Please - provide the source you base your knowledge on ( or this historian of yours) because I haven't found anything on the Internet that confirm your claim that this historian you mention came up with this theory of a Sólveig Jónsdóttir, who married to Ásbjörn Jónsson Drotning was a daughter of Jón Loftsson.

Private User

I think a good place to start would be to include in Jon's profile the list of people who inherited from him when he died, does this record still exist?

If the list still exists and can be added to the profile this gives us a rock solid basis from which to start any other work. There is then an option to have speculative children (such as the one being discussed) disconnected in the tree but still linked via hyperlinks and a short paragraph in the About.

As the curator of Jon’s profile I am more than willing to cut off this speculative daughter no matter how many times people may connect her until Geni gives me the ability to lock the profile to stop it from happening.

Ulf, I think your main objection to cutting the daughter previously was that it is such a common internet “fact” that she will just come straight back, if that is the case I will keep cutting her. I am usually online everyday but if a few days go by where someone has added her and I have not removed please just remind me and I will cut.

I have disconnected Sólveig Jónsdóttir from her speculative father Jón Loftsson and added a Curator note to each profile.

If evidence is presented I, or any other Curator, can reverse the disconnection.

FYI: I have also locked the Solveig profile in an attempt to limit the ability of users to re-connect it to Jon.

@Alex Moes there is really no ambition on my account to prove to anyone that this Sólveig Jónsdóttir who married in Sweden is or isn't the daughter of Jón Loftsson and his wife. I have my own pedigree that is a result of hundreds of years of work of my family because we had to be prepared to establish our identity through out the centuries and proving something here on Geni isn't a priority for me.

The beneficiaries of Jón Loftsson and his wife are mostly all listed with them with this one exception, Sólveig Jónsdóttir, who married in Sweden. I seriously doubt that someone at the Archives has a special list over the beneficiaries of Jón and his wife written in modern Icelandic. Then you are welcome to contact the National Archives here in Iceland and test your ability to read old manuscripts, that is if you are given access to them.

All the information's from the manuscripts and other research are gathered together in the National genealogical database over Icelandic genealogy and this Sólveig Jónsdóttir who married in Sweden isn't mentioned there. Nor is she mentioned in the genealogical books I have in my possession that publish the research findings of the scholars who studied the manuscripts (mainly who inherited who or was adopted by the mother or father - or both). Neither me, you or Ulf are discovering "The Wheel" in this field - the work has already been done decades ago.

I know this can be irritating - but you would be pretty occupied if you where to disconnect this extra profile - so perhaps we ought to leave her be for the moment.

I've not asked you to do anything about this Swedish woman, I am only asking if you have a digitised version of a list which you could easily copy and paste into Jon's ABout or a pdf version which we could attach as a image. From your response i take it you have neither.

I have disconnected the two profiles, frankly while there is traffic of users looking at these profiles there is not a lot of work being done on them apart from yourself and Ulf. I am on Geni everyday, disconnecting these profiles once or twice a year if needed will not overload me :)

Private User "What ever you sayt - klaim or wish for - there only existed ONE Sólveig Jónsdóttir, "

I did Not say or claim that her name was Solveig, several times I have over and over stated that her fist name was unknown, quite the opposite, isn't it?

I did not create that profile, but I am a manager of that profile and have been forced to correct it when errors have occurred, I have also tried my best to explain how and why it's there, and why I didn't want to rename it into N.N.

But you didn't answer my question about what she would have got from her father if she died before him, I'm waiting?

Alex Moes I think it was quite unnecessary to cut her of considering that not even today in our modern times we can expect to get all the names on every children in all families, just saying.

Private User you're not making any sense, I am sorry that you do not approve of my actions but i am not reversing it just because you are not happy.

There is no evidence presented to support the connection other than your statements that Gustav Storm had a theory.

If i have missed a relevant post in one of the discussions i will read it again if you point it out to me.

For the mean tie it is much preferable to start with a group of unconnected profiles and connect them when we find evidence rather than connecting everyone and only disconnecting when negative evidence is supplied.

@Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson you are asking what this profile of Sólveig Jónsdóttir could have gotten if she died before the father. Really Ulf are you serious? - I hope for your sake that you do realize that it is noted in her profile on Geni that she had married and had children and upon her death her husband and children would then be her first beneficiaries,, that is if they outlived her.... "next of kin" it is called. Besides being a heir to her parents, she probably would have brought a huge dowry with her into her marriage and more than likely she could have owned substantial assets before she got married and brought with her also.

And trust me Ulf - the family of Jón Loftsson whas rich..... very rich and if she was in reality a legal daughter of Jón and his wife Halldóra, she would for sure have been mentioned amongst their children.

@Alex Moes! According to the official National database Jón Loftsson had for sure these children listed with their mothers here below:
1) With Ragnheiður Þórhallsdóttir (probably a concubine) he had two sons: Páll Jónsson (1155-1211) and Ormur Jónsson (1160?-1218).
2) With his wife Halldóra Brandsdóttir he had two children: Sólveig Jónsdóttir (ca 1151-1198) and Sæmundur "Fróði" Jónsson (1154-1222).
3) With Æsa Jónsdóttir (one of Jón's concubines) he had one son: Þorsteinn Jónsson (ca 1160 - alive in 1193).
4) Helga Þórisdóttir (one of Jón's concubines) he had one son: Einar Jónsson (ca 1160?)
5) Valgerður Loftsdóttir (one of Jón's concubines) he had two sons: Hallbjörn Jónsson (1160?) and Sigurður Jónsson (1160?).
6) Mother unknown - he had the son Halldór Jónsson (1160?- died before 1. November 1197).

There is also NO mentioning of a daughter named Christina or Kristin - or a Valgerður - nor a "Arni "breiðbælingur" - and NONE of the siblings bore the surname "Drotning".

Hope this helps.

@Anna-Petursdottir "surname "Drotning".

Droting, (several ways to spell it, was a title, not a name, and when it comes to inheritance matters she would not have had anything if she died before her father, quite natural, isn't it?

You ask if I'm serious, but lets be clear that it was you who wrote this, "There is NO mentioning of a second Solveig Jónsdóttir who had ANY connections to this Ásbjörn Jónsson Drotning that inherited Jón Loftsson or his wife Halldóra Brandsdóttir."

Then you forgot who starts just this question, easily done, beside the fact that we already have stated that her name was unknown, children of her might have got some but not even that was always guaranteed, there are documented cases in Island as in the rest of Scandinavia of how inheritors have been robbed of their legal share, certainly there would have been undocumented such cases also, thereof the simple conclusion that if someone wasn't mentioned in a heritage, it's not a bulletproof evidence that they didn't belonged to that family.

And this is another last thing that I feel I have to repeat, I did not set up that profile, so what ever torn in the side you two latest poster have to me personally, take out your anger or whatever it is on Private User who created that profile.

@Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson! I wasn't accusing you of connecting this profile to my family tree. I really don't care who did - but the fact remains - this extra daughter, what ever her name is or was doesn't belong to this family. And further more - if she or her family ever made claim that she belonged to my family - it would be noted, or some knowledge of it would exist in the family saga.

Ulf I have no anger with you, the onus in genealogy is to prove a connection not to prove it. If anyone can supply reasonable proof that this woman, who's name is not Solveig, was Jon Loftsson's daughter i will reconnect.

At the moment all i have seen posts from a Swedish user stating that numerous web trees reflect the work of a Norwegian professor who had a theory about an Icelandic woman marrying a Swedish man. That is not evidence by any definition. We don't even have an extract of Storm's work in the profiles, can you supply that? I think it would be a good starting point.

Thank you for the list Anna, i will work on it when time permits, is there a formal citation i should be using? What is the name of the official National database?

Private User i would be curious to hear someone else's opinion :)

I will also try to make the time to go back and re-read previous discussions.

Private User "I wasn't accusing you of connecting this profile to my family tree." You might forget that this high up, it's not only "yours family tree", even after that cut made by Alex, Jón "ríki" Loftsson is also my first cousin 23 times removed.

Besides the royal lines, there have been a great deal of trade between Bohuslän, (also known as Viken, once a part of Norway), and Iceland, people have moved between these areas and the amount of unrecorded family relationships must be a lot bigger then the recorded ones, especially on this side where record tends to have not survived.

On the Island Tjörn, as just one example, a lot of Icelandic words were still in use as late as in the beginning of the last century, to overlook history is not wise, but when it comes to genealogy, it can easily give us a little skewed picture of reality because of single missing pieces.

Beside the 10.000 profiles less or more, affected, a lot of active Geni users now have with a single cut lost around 2500 possible forefathers, maybe for some of them this was their only way into the ancient history, and this far back, in a relatively small area, with a little number of people belonging to the top layer of wealth, and knowing that they in turn were all more or less interrelated to each other, the exact way of relationship becomes in that aspect less important than the possibility to actually be able to see a general outline of people relationships at a larger whole.

There was already a disclaimer in her profile saying that it rested on weak ground, and for nine years, people were satisfied with that.

"There was already a disclaimer in her profile saying that it rested on weak ground, and for nine years, people were satisfied with that."

You assume they were happy because they did not complain in public discussions.

You assume that because the profile is 9 years old the disclaimer is also 9 years old.

You assume that because there is a disclaimer in the About of two specific profiles that everyone following a path through this part of the tree will see the disclaimer and read it and understand it's implication.

Anna has clearly pointed out that there is no evidence of a link.

You have stated that someone else thinks there is a link.

The cut has been made, please post Gustav Storm's argument or a link to it. I acknowledge you point about the cut potentially affecting many people but that does not alter the validity of the action.

@Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson - I didn't ask Alex Moes to cut this profile from my family tree - he did it on his own. I have stopped contributing to Geni precisely because of how easy it is for everyone to mess with the tree. Even though there is no ground to their actions, nor any knowledge of genealogy or research work in genealogy. As I have said before - I have my own pedigree and also access to the National genealogical database and that is enough for me as the Icelandic line.

By the way - it is a fact that original Icelanders are of many Swedish kings and royalty and yes there must have been some connection between Iceland and Sweden. But that still doesn't proof that this profile you are so keen on attaching to my familytree and my ancestor Jón Loftsson (many times) and his wife Halldóra Brandsdóttir belongs there.

Yes, like you don't assume to much yourself, I had a look at your own connection into the world tree some time ago, assume that I was not surprised meeting an empty profile with no info at all in it, but you like cutting off trees, that I have noticed.

Anna hasn't disproved anything, she have strongly questioned if that woman could have been a daughter of Jon Loftsson, with all due respect, she still could have been, there's just not any evidence that support it, that's pretty much it. There have been some miss merging because she was set up with the same name as a sister.

In general, in order to have the same name as a sibling, that often meant that the previous sibling already had died, but a minimum of 1/1000 had actually the same name as a living sibling, if they had different mothers this rate also increases the rate of namesakes several times, nevertheless, her named should have been altered into N.N. considering the BIG amount of complaining Icelanders, 2 or 3 people in all if I have counted them right!

Ulf, I know exactly which profile you are referring to. I have done my best to document the profiles around him and i have contacted the managers of the profiles around him.

I am waiting to hear back from them, they sure are taking their time, about sources and supporting documents. If i get any evidence i will add it to the profile, if i get a reasonable argument against it i will cut it. So far with no responses i have done nothing, i would think that it is a slightly different scenario?

Also even if i were to cut him it would only change my path not float me off into space.

Here is a link to the discussion about NN van Bierum https://www.geni.com/discussions/136295?msg=946889

Well, even without sources it's sometimes possible to recreate a missing profile between two profiles that both have sources and descendants, it comes down to probabilities, logical analysis and the use of reliable exclusion methods, sometimes that's the easy part, other times you need a broader perspective by following other near by profiles and see how or if they interact again with each other, and if they do it in certain patterns, then it can indirect reveal that the one you filled the gap with, likely did belong there.

Is this genealogy you might ask or some kind of theory or hypothesis building? Well, that in turn depends on how strong the outcome became, from without any doubt to just plausible, and what we as individuals accept as proof. It's too easy to claim that any profile without sources has no value and shouldn't be in the tree and by that ignoring indirect factors from the sides that together actually can be used as a form of evidence in itself, or at least, a support for a plausible existence.

In my head, this was easier thought than explained in words, so excuse me if it become a bit sketchy.

@Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson. And now you are accusing me of what? Lying about my ancestry because I didn't provide documentary proof with every ancestor I have listed on Geni of the several hundreds of nearly 12.000 known ancestors that are listed in my pedigree?

Explain to me - should I have translated all the thousands of sources we base our genealogy over here in Iceland - written in Icelandic and not available on the Internet, just to satisfy or to avoid not to insult your "highness" ? Or wouldn't you still have doubted my translations?