Ingelram of Flanders (Fictitious) - Discussion of Ingleram's fictitious or non-fictitious nature
Started by Anne Brannen on Sunday, November 27, 2016
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11/27/2016 at 8:50 AM
(Justin Durand -- could you take a look at this discussion? I'm going to try to summarize the messages so far, and what's going on, but since you were doing the original work on the research for the fictional designation, your input would be valuable.)
There has been a discussion among profile managers, started by Dorothy Smid, with input from me and from Private User, concerning the piece of the Geni tree wherein Ingelram is separated from his son Otger of Harelbeke and Otger is given Unknown parents.
The evidence for this can be found in the overview sections for both Otger and Ingelram, but the ways in which all of the evidence can be argued -- and what useful evidence actually is -- is a lot of what is going on here.
so I'm bringing this to public discussion, and will provide a precis of the argument, and list the pieces of evidence given so far, explaining what is useful or not useful about them.
And then you can ALL get involved, if you are interested.
To wit:
The issue has to do with the ancestors of Baldwin I "Iron-Arm", 1st margrave of Flanders -- there are traditional stories about his ancestry, but current scholarship holds that these stories were made up my monks living hundreds of years later, in order to give him heroic origins. (This is VERY common in early medieval genealogy; this discussion comes up a lot, therefore.)
The overviews for these profiles refer both to http://www.davidsfonds.be/publisher/edition/detail.phtml?id=3549 and to Medlands (more on Medlands later), as sources for the idea that Baldwin's ancestors were legendary.
On the other hand, users have provided many links to sources meant to show that Baldwin's ancestors are not fictional, but real, as follows:
http://fosterfamilyhistory.com/french-origins.pdf -- this is part of a family web site, and there are no sources given for the information; so there is no way of judging its veracity; it is not useful.
http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/h/u/g/Loretta-F-Hughes-North-Richland-... -- this is a family web tree site, and gives no sources for the information; there is no way to judge the veracity of the information, and it's not useful.
https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=https:/... -- Wikipedia sources can be useful, if they are sourced; there are no sources given for this information, and it is therefore not useful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_I,_Margrave_of_Flanders -- although this Wikipedia page SAYS it does not have sources, it actually does; however, the only real scholarly source is from 1886, long before later scholars argued that the legendary story is exactly that, legendary. So it's not useful, not because it isn't sourced, but because we know that the source does not take later thinking and information into account.
https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=https:/... -- Wikipedia page with no sources, not useful.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_forestiers_van_de_Vlaandere... -- Wikipedia page with no sources.
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/BV.aspx?ref=IE8Activity&a=ht... -- no sources, but all about the legend.
https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https:/... -- Wikipedia page that does have sources, and is all about the legend, stating that it is a legend.
https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&tl=en&... -- this is actually a VERY useful Wikipedia page, because it gives both the early story AND the later explanation of its speculative nature. It does have a scholarly source, which is the very one given in the Overviews to the contested profiles. And it all goes to show that indeed, there is no real reason to believe that the legends are true.
So, so far, nothing here leads me to believe that the recent scholarship is wrong; essentially, what we're seeing here is that the stories about Baldwin's ancestry were indeed made up at a later date.
BUT! WAIT! What about Medlands?
We rely pretty heavily on Medlands here at Geni, though the site is somewhat uneven (it's not good for tracing women, for instance), so let's go look at what they've got:
It's a massive page, but luckily we just need the beginning.
And at first glance, it seems to support the idea that indeed the ancestors of Baldwin are real and should be reinstated, as it gives the lineage Lideric - Enguerrand - Odacre - Badouin, exactly what the legend says. And it gives all the medieval manuscript sources for this line.
But it also gives the entire issue, at great length, which I'll summarize here, as you can go read it all in the link:
Lideric: "The existence of Lideric is unknown and, if he did exist, his origin uncertain."
Enguerrand: problematic, even if he did exist, as the dates are contradictory
Odacre: also problematic, as the dates don't make sense.
ALL of the information on these three men, moreover, has been presented in square brackets, meaning that it is NOT verifiable, and should be treated with caution, as the first paragraph of the page makes clear:
"The county of Flanders took its name from the Carolingian pagus flandrensis, located around Bruges, the countship of which was granted to Baudouin I in 863 by Charles II "le Chauve" King of the West Franks whose daughter he had abducted. Before this date, the senior governing figure in the area was apparently the "forestier", in other words the "controller" of the forests, a post held successively by some of Baudouin's supposed ancestors, although both their existence and, if they did exist, the extent of their authority is subject to debate[1]. The possible ancestry of Baudouin I Count of Flanders is set out in Chapter 1.A below. None of the individuals named is referred to in surviving contemporary primary sources, although it is impossible to assess whether the later sources were based on earlier documentation which has since disappeared. Information relating to these individuals is incomplete and, in part, contradictory. The earlier generations of Count Baudouin's alleged ancestors are referred to as counts at Harlabecce, presumably Harlebeke on the outskirts of Courtrai. It is assumed that, if they were historical people, they were minor lords whose jurisdiction was limited to a small area. It is probable that the title "count" was attributed to them retrospectively by the later sources in order to boost the standing of the comital family of Flanders. No reference to a pagus Harlabeccensis has been found: in particular it is not included among the Flemish pagi which are described by Vanderkindere[2]. Stewart Baldwin, in his detailed analysis of all references to these individuals, has concluded that the ancestry is "legendary" and should be rejected as "an eleventh century invention", although he acknowledges that there is still a chance that the entries in the Annales Blandinienses are based on genuine information[3]. It is also interesting to observe that none of the names of these supposed early counts is found among the descendants of Count Baudouin, although this does not provide conclusive proof of the unreliability of the ancestry. Although the names and relationships of these individuals are referred to in a wide range of sources, the ancestry is shown in the present document in square brackets, indicating that the information should be treated with caution."
For those still having questions about why Geni disconnects Baldwin from his legendary ancestors, it is worth going to Medlands and clicking on the first notation link [1] -- that will lead you to some of Stewart Baldwin's presentations of the arguments that the legends are legends and not actual ancestors.
11/27/2016 at 9:17 AM
https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://...
The statue of Liederik the Buc refers to the first forestier and thus the progenitor of the Counts. The forest keepers are the ancestors of the counts of Flanders that would originate in Harelbeke. Of Liederik the Buc we can say with certainty that he is a mythical character. Liederik the Buc is often confused with other Liederik that would be buried along with his descendants Ingelram and Audacer in Harelbeke St. Salvator Church.
Figurine Harelbeekse sculptor Gustav Calu on the former public pump. Who took you to the ship home, where the former 'High Cross, "the earl tribunal or court found. After wandering into the station it was put on the market.
NOTE to >>>>>>Anne Brannen
Liederik the Buc is often confused with other Liederik that would be buried along with his descendants Ingelram and Audacer in Harelbeke St. Salvator Church.
I gave the links of REAL historical people.. you and others have confused him with the mythical character as mentioned in this link.
11/27/2016 at 9:35 AM
https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://...
The forest keepers of Harelbeke
The forest keepers are the ancestors of the Counts. They would have lain buried in the Harelbeekse St. Salvator Church. A remarkable and fascinating story.
Origin of Flemish history
The whole story began in the sixties of the twelfth century. In that period, see in Saint-Omer, most likely in the St. Bertijnsabdij, the "Genealogia comitum Flandriae 'was born. This source, which is halfway between a genealogy and a columnist, provides information about the Flemish Count's house for the period 792-1164 ...
The Genealogia, often as the Flandria Generosa A is referred to in the literature, one can today be found in various manuscripts. Moreover, they have many copyists of the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth centuries inspired to write a sequel. Finally, she also stands at the cradle of a whole historiographical tradition and plays as if the role of mother of the chronicles of Flanders.
Digging Harelbeke
A version begins with a brief note about the legendary ancestor of Count Baudouin I, namely Liederik Harelbeke, Ingelram and Audacer. Liederik is hereby named Earl. Liederik hereby Flanders was not given in fief, but conquered it so that all Flemings according to this story descendants of Liederik.
Graves to forest irish
Flandria Generosa B (thirteenth century) builds on this story. But now Liederik, Ingelram and Audacer no longer called graves, but "irish forest or forest masters in the service of the French king. The Counts forefathers so the land loan received from the French king. The French kings by this author therefore right to rule over Flanders.
Liederik the Buc
The author of the Flandria Generosa C takes these characters in his chronicle and weaves, moreover, a whole story around. According to him, not Liederik Harelbeke, but some Liederik the Buc the progenitor of the Flemish Count's house. The reader is drawn into a story that has more characteristics of a knight novel than an actual chronicle. He is informed in a comprehensive manner Song Erik's life and his many adventures in the forest without mercy, where he is occupied with killing giants, chasing white deer and comforting desperate damsels.
Liederik the Buc would be a distant ancestor of Liederik, Ingelram and Audacer. Liederik the Buc is clearly a mythological figure. Remarkably, the authors situate its origins in Dijon and then just had the Dukes of Burgundy in Flanders to power. The Dukes therefore had the right to rule here as the ancestors of the counts of Flanders, Liederik the Buc came from Burgundy (Dijon).
Fact or fiction?
Liederik the Buc may therefore to the land of fables are referred. But what about now Liederik, Ingelram and Audacer. Until the early nineteenth century, virtually everyone is convinced that this story was true. But when doubts surfaced and discussed the historians about the real character.
The last historical study of Véronique Lambert argues that Liederik, Ingelram and Audacer probably will truly existed and that perhaps digging in Harelbeke bearing those names are located. But what is their relationship, whether they are effectively the ancestors of Baudouin I, ... that is unlikely. We must ask the question why the author chose Harelbeke place of origin of the county of Flanders. That did not really prestigious.
Ultimately, the debate about true or not may not be so relevant even. What is important is that in the Middle Ages believed the tombs themselves that their roots lay in Harelbeke. That's why they invented the town with rights and an exceptional collegiate church. The story thus ensured that Harelbeke stood in respect.
Sources:
• Until Spreading of Knowledge and Development of Patriotism "- Chronicles to Perse - Ann Cellars. 1997
• V. Lambert, The forest keepers of Harelbeke, 2006, The rod of Harelbeke
comments
Liderick possessed Flanders
Liderick gave upon arrival in Flanders prince Iago v Cadfan the area that the Lands v Cadfant was called. 'm Supposed that this was a dowry as both families were always closely related. Liderick gave the region do not borrow so almost certainty that Flanders of which it was part owned. Mr v Cadsant remained centuries its owners, until was engulfed by the floods.
By Rigo Hinderyckx on Thu, 17/04/2014 - 15:40
11/27/2016 at 9:42 AM
I cant remember if this was one of the links I gave you Ann... But I will repost it here
https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=https:/...
Liederik
Jump to: navigation , search
Liederik of Flanders Shire
? - 817
Liederik II depicted in the Flandria illustrata from 1641
Liederik II depicted in the Flandria illustrata from 1641
Forestier of Flanders Shire
Period 792 - 836
Successor Ingelram
Count of Harelbeke
Period ? - 836
Successor Ingelram
Liederik of Flanders Shire (d. Possible Harelbeke , 836 ) The first would forestier of Flanders Shire (pagus Flandrensis) have been digging and Harelbeke. Its historicity is not fixed. He is not mentioned in contemporary documents. In the later Middle Ages, people regarded him as a direct ancestor in the male line of Baldwin I of Flanders
Over the centuries it was his "biography" rigged with more and more details. He was, according to this tradition Rithilde married to the sister of the Frankish King Dagobert , king of 711-715. Liederik would be born in a manor near Laon and during the Saxon Wars are fought enthusiastically in the army of Charles the Great , and won a bloody victory against the warriors of Wittekind of Saxony . As a reward he received from his sovereign the government allocated about Kortrijk and Mepsegouw . Charlemagne additionally attached to this board holds the large forest area that would soon be the Harelbeekse feudal estate. He confided to his vassal a multitude prisoner policy Saxony far, to naturalise them in their new homeland along the banks of the river Lys . These entanglements laid the foundation for the future county of Flanders .
Liederik was buried in Harelbeke, where now stands the sacristy area of the St. Salvator Church. He was succeeded by his son Ingelram .
Liederik I and II [ edit ]
Although Liederik first known as the first forest Count of Flanders, the list of forest keepers was later expanded to four people even earlier. It came a Liederik for at the time of Clotaire II would have lived and the first forestier would have been.
On this Liederik was based the legend of Liederik and Phinaert, see The Legend of Liederik and Phinaert (fr).
References [ edit ]
V. Lambert, Origin Myths and national identity. The Flanders Forest Irish, in: De Lys Gouw, 2006, p. 189-246; 2007, 97 ff; 163 et seq
category : Forestier of Flanders Shire
Justin Durand PRO
11/27/2016 at 10:58 AM
Anne Brannen, thanks for the invitation to comment. You've done such an outstanding job of compiling the information there isn't much left for me to add.
There is no doubt the ancestors of Baudouin are fictitious. There are no graves. There is no mention of them in contemporary or reasonably contemporary sources.
Our standard on Geni is verifiability. The same as for academia. People who like stories more than facts have a hard time adjusting to Geni.
There are a thousand other medieval legends just like this one. At a stretch, we could believe all those legends have a core of truth and we have lost the sources that would have proved them. But that's not the same thing as saying they are probable, or even credible. They are all merely possible -- if someone wants hard enough to believe them. We can't prove them, but we also can't disprove them. No sources truly means no sources.
Justin Durand PRO
11/27/2016 at 11:03 AM
Anne Brannen, if you and I ever presented a seminar for Geni users I would want it to be about these old stories. Our ancestors in the Age of Chivalry loved these stories.
One common variant was a virtuous and brave knight, unfortunately landless, wins the king's daughter and gets a grant of land that becomes the patrimony of his house. Over time, different story tellers embroider the story to create an increasingly complex story and an increasingly complex genealogy.
The Legend of King Arthur developed in exactly the same way, with many authors telling and re-telling the old stories and creating new variations.
There was a huge market for these stories and for troubadours to tell them, as much as for modern romance novels. Younger sons serving as household knights in their lord's household loved them, because this is what they dreamed of. An heiress and land of their own to rule. And the lords and ladies loved them because the stories affirmed what must be true -- that their family were close kin of the king and that the lands they held were the reward for brave and honorable deeds.
And, just like modern romance novels, you know as soon as you start what kind of adventures there might be and how it will end. It's a template. Certain things will never happen and other things must happen.
No one much cared that documents rotting in a nearby monastery told a different story. In fact, when the documents survive to check against the stories we often see that these lords and ladies and knights were totally ignorant of the fact that they had a much higher and more distinguished ancestry than they knew. They weren't preserving old traditions, they were inventing new ones that fit the mold they wanted.
If you spend years reading hundreds of these fanciful stories, you get a feel for them and can spot them right away. Our problem on Geni is that most users have not put in that study time. They come to each story as though it is one of a kind instead of a cultural formula.
11/27/2016 at 11:15 AM
11/27/2016 at 5:13 PM
Justin Swanström ... on http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FLANDERS,%20HAINAUT.htm#BaudouinIdi...
it clearly says
COUNTS of FLANDERS [863]-1128
BAUDOUIN, son of [ODACRE [Audacer or Odoscer] & his wife ---]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_I,_Margrave_of_Flanders
"Baldwin I (probably 830s – 879), also known as Baldwin Iron Arm (the epithet is first recorded in the 12th century), was the first Margrave of Flanders."
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=...
WHAT ONE IS RIGHT??????????? I can tell this GENI IS WRONG!!!!!!
11/27/2016 at 5:25 PM
BTW my last link provided other "reliable sources" Sources For the revision of the article in April 2010 made use of the English, French and German versions of this article in Wikipedia.
For the text expansion following work was consulted on June 7, 2014: JF Verbruggen - R. Falter, 1302, uprising in Flanders, Tielt, 2001.
KH. Schreiber (ed.), Art. Balduin I. Eisenarm, Genealogie-Mittelalter.de (2002). E. Brandenburg, who Nach Bowls Karls des Großen, Leipzig, 1935, pp. 1 plate 1, 113.
A. Thiele, Erzählende genealogical Stammtafeln europäischen zur Geschichte, II.1, Frankfurt Mainz, 1993, plate 25.
P. Riché who Karolinger. Eine Familie formt Europe, Munich, 1991, p. 235.
C. Cawley, Flanders, Counts, fmg.ac (2006-2015).
This on sticks out "C. Cawley, Flanders, Counts, fmg.ac (2006-2015). """ Now your contradicting your own site Justin?... I don't get it ...
Justin Durand PRO
11/27/2016 at 6:57 PM
Dorothy,
Do we have a language barrier? The sources you are citing show that Geni is correct.
Medlands puts Otger / Odacre in square brackets to show there is no proof but this is the "traditional story". Anne explained that to you earlier.
You cite English Wikipedia but it does not give Baudouin's parents.
You cite Dutch Wikiepdia but is says clearly Baudouin's father is a medieval fake ("raditioneel wordt de forestier Odoaker als zijn vader gezien, maar Odoaker (als vader van Boudewijn) en zijn voorouders worden tegenwoordig als speculatief beschouwd omdat dit alleen is gebaseerd op teksten uit de twaalfde eeuw.")
11/27/2016 at 8:42 PM
I think we do Justin... because the Dutch Wikipedia says and an Oxford site I've come across says the same thing.
On this same page it lists his father as Odakar III
so now that brings me to
Otger
He did have a known parent but you list them as unknown...
List of forest keepers of Flanders Shire
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=...
PERIOD
FORESTIER
RELATIONSHIP TO PREVIOUS
792 - 836 Liederik
836 - 852 Ingelram son
852 - 864 Odoacer son
BTW ....There are two Liederik figures.. ONE is the fictional character the other was a real person as I am trying to explain to you. The real Liederik was buried in Harelbeke, where now stands the sacristy area of the St. Salvator Church. He was succeeded by his son Ingelram .
regarding the "Liederik" on geni..... there are two Liederik I and II
Liederik II was based the legend of Liederik and Phinaert, see The Legend of Liederik and Phinaert (fr).
I am referring to Leiderick I and NOT this fictional one you are talking about and have on Geni . understand now?
Justin Durand PRO
11/27/2016 at 8:55 PM
Private User
11/28/2016 at 3:58 AM
I am seldom here on discussions like this, and are rare. It is because discussions like this bring nothing New. But this time do I employ the occacion. Dorothy has come over internet links about Otger / Audacer / Odacre and try to solve who is the parents of his. So far nothing has come up from the rest of you. It is this I want you to find. Not to find how we not shall try to solve this issue. So help us to find the parents, please.
Arnfred Nilsen
11/28/2016 at 8:34 AM
https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=https:/...
Justin can please translate this book to English....I can not read nor understand what is written on that Ebook page.
11/28/2016 at 8:37 AM
Justin Durand PRO
11/28/2016 at 8:41 AM
Arnfred,
This is a very simple question.
There are no records about Baudouin's father or ancestry from Baudouin's own lifetime.
The only evidence is 300 acres later in a chronicle that says Baudouin was son of Odacre (Otger), who was son of Enguerrand (Ingelram), who was son of Lideric. According to the story, Lideric came from Spain. He was given Flanders, which was uninhabited, by Charlemagne.
A gap of 300 years is too long. The story is not good evidence.
There are also problems with the chronology, the problem that none of it appears in Frankish records of the time, and the problem that Flanders cannot have been uninhabited.
The story looks like a fantasy written by someone who was using imagination to fill in the unknown ancestry of Baudouin.
11/28/2016 at 8:45 AM
Getting back to the ancestors of Liederick..... they are messed up here on Geni...
I've brought this up in a privet mess already but would like this matter fixed if that is possible for the curators to do.
listed as being born in "750"
Lydéric van Vlaanderen MP
Birth:
circa 750
Vlaanderen
Death:
circa 800 (42-58)
His father is also listed as being born "750"
https://www.geni.com/people/Lyd%C3%A9ric-IV-Fictitious/600000001418...
Lydéric IV van Harlebeke MP
Birth:
750
Flanders, Nordfrance
Death:
808 (58)
Harelbeke, West F
Even thought they are fictional, they could not of been born the same year. What's more amusing is they are both made MP status . Does this make any sense to you experts?
11/28/2016 at 9:26 AM
Now we seem to have yet another problem regarding Otger... Otger of Harelbeke
the Dutch wiki page does NOT mention him having a wife but here on Geni he does, Two as a matter of fact.. This is WRONG ...
Ida van Vlaanderen (van Leuven) Ida van Leuven
Listed as HER father is Ingelram van Harelbeke (van Leuven) .. this is not right either... " Ingelram van Harelbeke " WAS OTGER's father according to all the others sites regarding " Odacre (Otger)" or whatever you wish to call him.
I don't understand why you curators cant understand this. WHY make profiles MP status based on nonsense from other trees as your "proof" and reliable sources and show a total disregard to sites like Wikipedia or other historical sites made by people that make their living researching.
Only on Geni is it so messed up. Good job curators............................ you should be so proud of you contributions to the Geni tree.
Justin Durand PRO
11/28/2016 at 9:38 AM
Dorothy,
The book gives the old, traditional genealogy without any academic citation. Of course. It was published in 1733 -- back when all genealogies were just compilations of everything written before and long before modern scholarship started using original sources.
The book gives six numbered rulers before Baudouin:
1 Liderik I,
2 Anotoni 2nd son of Liderik,
3 Bouchard 3rd son of Liderik,
4 Estored son of Bouchard, succeeded by Liderik II
5 Ingelram son of Liderik
6 Odoacer son of Ingelram
Then the numbering stops. The text starts again with "Boudewyn, or Baldewyn", who was held to be son of Odoacer ("gehouden voor den zone van Odoacer").
Later on the same page it gives a list of "all the counts of Flanders", starting with Baldewyn.
11/28/2016 at 9:49 AM
Justin Durand PRO
11/28/2016 at 9:55 AM
Dorothy, your recent comments are way out of line. They show a fundamental lack of understanding.
It is NOT the curators' job to do the work. The curators' job is coordinate the work. To help with that coordination, a curator can make an MP so that there is one main profile and the duplicates get merged into it. A curator can also lock fields or lock an entire profile when necessary to block bad information.
It is the users who research the lines, and add the best information they have. (Remembering too that curators are also just ordinary users who might work in the same areas if they are interested.)
The "errors" you see in this line are the result of 700 years of increasingly elaborate and conflicting theories and fantasies. This is very obvious to anyone who has made even a cursory study of the old genealogies. Different users have copied different sources without following any master plan for sourcing and without discussing with each other what they are doing.
This area could use a solid clean up, certainly. But it does not help that you are starting with one particular fantasy version and expecting Geni to conform to that.
11/28/2016 at 9:59 AM
would this link be of any use regarding this discussion?
in Dutch
http://www.dekronieken.com/P0804100.html
Translated to English
https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://...
it's quite interesting to read.
Justin Durand PRO
11/28/2016 at 10:19 AM
11/28/2016 at 10:23 AM
Justin I can read English and from ALL the sites I read all say Ingelram was Otger father... I am done repeating myself.
BTW who is Anseline de Steenland, wife of Otger? and or who is Ida van Vlaanderen (van Leuven)?
where are the reliable sources ? From what I can see over the internet they come from other bogus family trees. They are made up. and have no right even being on the tree let alone made MP status.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Lfg7ilbJhMYC&pg=PA40&lpg=P...
Godfrey de Neustrie, duke of Lorraine
Godfrey de Neustria
Gender:
Male
Birth:
circa 840
Ingelheim,,Hessen,Germany
Death:
890 (46-54)
France
Immediate Family:
Son of Rowland de Neustrie and Fladrine de Neustrie
Husband of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Anseline de Steenland, wife of Otger
Father of Baldwin I de Blois
Now from what I read about Godfrey of Neustria his wife was unknown Yet here on Geni he has a wife .... not true at all.
Justin Durand PRO
11/28/2016 at 10:41 AM
>> ALL the sites I read all say Ingelram was Otger father
Yes, and it's all crap.
1. There is no contemporary evidence about Baudouin's father. That's very normal for a man of his time, even very prominent men. Connected, documented genealogies begin about this time.
2. There is no contemporary evidence for Odoacer / Otger.
3. There is no contemporary evidence for Ingelram.
4. There is no contemporary evidence for Lyderic. The idea that there were two Lyderics is a THEORY designed to explain contradictions in the myth.
The core story links three men, Lyderic, Ingelram, and Odoacer, none of whom can be proved as real. As the genealogical propaganda got more complex, these men acquired fake wives and fake connections.
We can have a fantasy tree on Geni, no problem. But it can't be the ancestors of real people. That's non-negotiable.
We can create a fictitious tree with Lyderic, Ingelram and Odoacer. No problem. They all come from the same fake genealogy circa 1120.
But then we have to decide how far to go down the rabbit hole. Do we stop with the original fake? Do we stop with the legend as it existed in 1400? In 1500? In 1600? In 1700? That is a heavy decision.
11/28/2016 at 10:55 AM
One of the problems with web research is that things can get copied so quickly, and spread around, that it's very easy to confuse bulk with quality.
By which I mean, that a site is useful isn't a function of how often is shows up; it's a function of 1) who wrote it, and 2) to what purposes, and 3) where did they get the information and 4) is that information solid.
So it's irrelevant that the lovely legend shows up all over the place. Of course it does. It's easy to understand, and it's fun, cause it takes the line on back into the heroes (which is why it got invented in the first place).
Most of my job as a medievalist, over the decades, has been that of explaining why the lovely stories aren't true. Alas.
11/28/2016 at 11:24 AM
I think I've FINALLY figured out what wrong here..
I just came across this French Wikipedia page regarding "Ingelram"
https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=https:/...
if you prefer the French https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enguerrand_delle_Fiandre
Now bare with me here ... this makes sense to me please fell free to correct me if you think I am wrong.
Enguerrand of Flanders
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
the website says
" Enguerrand, also known as Ingelram or Rowland (between 760 and 780 - 825 ), was governor [1] (ranger or warden) of Flanders . "
Origin [ change | change wikitext ]
According Genealogy was the illegitimate son of Charles the Younger who was the firstborn male child (as we confirm the Laurissenses Annales: Carolus rex primogenitum filium suum Carolum [2] ) of the king of all the Franks and the future emperor Charlemagne and the second or third [3] wife Hildegard , daughter of Count Gerold Vinzgouw Alamania and Emma, daughter of Hnabi of Alamania Duke and some Iuliana [1] , so it was a grandson of Charlemagne, while according to the Genealogy comitum Flandriæ Bertiniana, and Lamberti Genealogy comitum Flandriæ was the son of Lidrico (or Liderico) of Harlebec [4] [5] and of the wife that you do not know neither the ascending nor the name; Finally, according to the Chronicle Monasterii Sancti Bertini auctore Iohanne Longo de Ipra was the son of Lidrico (or Liderico) and a daughter of a certain Gerard of Roussillon [6] .
The origin of Lidrico is uncertain, but according to the Chronicle Monasterii Sancti Bertini auctore Iohanne Longo de Ipra Lidrico was of noble origin, was descended from a noble family who lived in the Iberian Peninsula [6] . Her parents do not know the names. According to the Portuguese historian, José Mattoso, you can assume that he was a descendant of the noble Visigoths [7] .
Biography [ change | change wikitext ]
According to the Chronicle Monasterii Sancti Bertini auctore Iohanne Longo de Ipra Enguerrand succeeded his father, Lidrico [6] .
According to the Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de Saint-Bertin Enguerrand of Harlebec (Engerranus Harlebecanus) was the second after Lidrico (which is referred to as his father), to rule Flanders, but without being mentioned with the title of Count [8] .
In the various chronicles of the Monumenta Germaniae Historica , tells of a certain Enguerrand lived in the mid- ninth century , which no doubt is not our Enguerrand [9]
According to the Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de Saint-Bertin Enguerrand died during the ' 825 [8] ,
Marriage and descendants [ change | change wikitext ]
Enguerrand had a wife that you do not know neither the ascending nor the name and with whom he had a son:
Odacre (Audacer or Odoscer) [4] ( 800 / 10 - 837 ), who succeeded his father in the government of Flanders
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=...
Odacre
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Odacre, also known as Audacer or Odoscer (between the ' 800 and the' 810 - 837 ), was governor [1] (ranger or warden) of Flanders .
Origin [ change | change wikitext ]
According to the Genealogy comitum Flandriæ Bertiniana, and Lamberti Genealogy comitum Flandriæ was the son of Enguerrand (or Ingelram or Rowland) of Harlebec [2] [3] and of the wife that you do not know neither the ascending nor the name.
Enguerrand of Flanders, according Genealogy was the illegitimate son of Charles the Younger who was the firstborn male child (as we confirm the Annales Laurissenses: Carolus rex primogenitum filium suum Carolum [4] ) of the king of all the Franks and the future emperor Charlemagne and the second or third [5] wife Hildegard , daughter of Count Gerold Vinzgouw Alamania and Emma, daughter of Hnabi of Alamania Duke and some Iuliana [6] , so it was a grandson of Charlemagne, while according to the Genealogy comitum Flandriæ Bertiniana, and Lamberti Genealogy comitum Flandriæ was the son of Lidrico (or Liderico) of Harlebec [2] [3] and of the wife that you do not know neither the ascending nor the name; Finally, according to the Chronicle Monasterii Sancti Bertini auctore Iohanne Longo de Ipra was the son of Lidrico (or Liderico) and a daughter of a certain Gerard of Roussillon [7] .
Biography [ change | change wikitext ]
According to the Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de Saint-Bertin Odacre was the third, after Lidrico and Enguerrand (which is referred to as his father), to rule Flanders, but without being mentioned with the title of count, but forester [8] .
In the battle fought against the Avars, on the banks of the Danube had sported a Carolingian nobleman named Audocrus [9] , which could be the ostro Odacre.
Odacre (Audacrus comes) is quoted in Mandatum de Saxonibus Obsidibus [10] .
Also according to the Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de Saint-Bertin Odacre died during the ' 837 [8] , but does not specify who took over the government of Flanders.
Even the Annales Blandinienses they cite the death, in ' 836 , referring to the name of his grandfather, Lidrico remembering his burial to Arlabeka [11] .
Marriage and descendants [ change | change wikitext ]
Odacre had a wife that you do not know neither the ascending nor the name and with whom he had a son:
Baldwin [2] ( 830 / 7 - 879 ), who was the first Count of Flanders .
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=...
Baldwin I of Flanders
Baldwin I, also known as Baldwin Popeye ( 830 / 837 [1] or 837 / 840 [2] - Arras [1] , 879 ), was the first Count of Flanders from ' 864 to his death.
Origin [ change | change wikitext ]
According to the Genealogy comitum Flandriæ Bertiniana, and Lamberti Genealogy comitum Flandriæ was the son of Odacre , also known as Audacer or Odoscer of Harlebec [3] [4] and of the wife that you do not know neither the ascending nor the name.
Still according to the Genealogy comitum Flandriæ Bertiniana, and Lamberti Genealogy comitum Flandriæ, Odacre was the son of Enguerrand (or Ingelram or Rowland) of Harlebec [3] [4] and his wife that you do not know neither the ascending nor the name.
Biography [ change | change wikitext ]
The investiture of Baldwin I Iron Arm, the first Count of Flanders, by Charles the Bald
The Baldwin family for three generations ruled Flanders with the title of forester, the father, Odacre [5] , that his grandfather, Enguerrand [5] , that the great-grandfather, Lidrico [5] .
Baldwin I and his wife, Judith
Around Christmas 861 , Baldwin kidnapped Judith ( 843 / 4 -after the ' 870 ), the daughter of the king of the West Franks, Charles the Bald [6] , most likely after they were married in the monastery of Senlis , where, according to the Annales Bertiniani and Hincmari Remensis Annales, Judith was [7] [8] , since after being widowed of her second husband, Ethelbald , King of Wessex , according to the Annales Bertiniani and Hincmari Remensis Annales, had sold all its properties in Wessex and he had returned to France [7] [8] .
The escape of Baldwin and Judith, also mentioned by Annales Blandinienses [9] , was agreed [10] and was apparently took place with the consent of Judith's brother, Luigi Balbo . In fact, according to the Annales Bertiniani , in ' 862 , Louis was accused of aiutatola sister, Judith, to escape with Baldwin [11] . Furious, the father of Judith ordered his bishops to excommunicate the couple [11] ; the fugitives took refuge at the court of Lothair II , cousin of Judith, in search of protection [12] , before traveling by Pope Nicholas I to plead their cause. The Pontiff began diplomatic negotiations, and asked Charles the Bald to accept the union as a legally binding [11] , and to welcome the young couple to his court, something which finally agreed [13] . The pair thus returned to France and was officially married [14] to Auxerre in ' 863 [15] .
The story is also confirmed by the reporter Flodoardo , in his Historia Remensis Ecclesiae [16] .
Baldwin received land in South of the Scheldt [14] , the Flanders , though these ricoprissero an area smaller than the corresponding gau existed in ' High Middle Ages , certainly including the counties of Ghent , Bruges and Kortrijk so that would protect attacks by the Vikings [17] . Also in the ' 863 , he received the county of Ternois and became a lay abbot of the abbey of St Peter Gent [6] . In practice, it became count of Flanders [6] .
Baldwin is mentioned in the document, dated June 14 877 , believed written by the Emperor Charles the Bald , in anticipation of his own death, which invites its accounts to support his son, Luigi Balbo [18] .
A legend attributes to Baldwin the construction of the church of San Donato ( "Sint Donaatskapittel") in Bruges [6] .
According to the Annales Vedastini Baldwin I died in ' 879 [19] , confirmed date from Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de Saint-Bertin, which states that he was buried in' Abbey of San Bertino [5] in Saint-Omer (Pas de Calais) . Even the Annales Blandinienses remember the death of Baldwin, remembered as the son of Odacre ( "Balduvinus filius Audacri") [9]
Marriage and descendants [ change | change wikitext ]
Baldwin had married Judith , the daughter of Charles the Bald . Judith was already married to the King of Wessex , Ethelwulf and then with his son Etelbaldo of Wessex , later King of Wessex , which had not had children. By Judith Baldwin she had five children:
Carlo [5] (n. After 863 - died young), apparently named after his maternal grandfather;
Baldwin II [5] ( 865 / 7 - 918 ), who succeeded his father as Count of Flanders; Ælfthryth married, daughter of Alfred the Great ;
Raoul (Rudolph) [5] ( 869 approximately - 896 ), Count of Cambrai [5] , and was killed by Herbert I, Count of Vermandois in ' 896 after, Herbert had been besieged in its properties by the king of the West Franks , Oddone and Rodolfo, who was in the wake of Odo, took the opportunity to acquire some of Herbert properties [20] , which Reconnecting with Oddone regained its properties, for which he came into conflict with Rudolph [20] and in the fighting that followed, Herbert killed Rodolfo [20] [21] ;
a daughter that you do not know the name;
Guinidilda ( 870 approximately - 904 ), who married the Count of Barcelona , Wilfred the Hairy .
All this is from The French Wikipedia pages
Sounds like they have it all figured out
11/28/2016 at 11:42 AM
Justin Durand PRO
11/28/2016 at 11:59 AM
Dorothy, this misses the point and introduces unnecessary confusion. If you've already MedLands, you'll see the problem immediately.
Don't be deceived by the impressive sounding sources. These are the same sources we've already been discussing. They are 300 years too late to count for anything.
And, there is a problem with Ingelram. A big problem. The dates don't work. Not at all. MedLands walks through the problem then concludes, "The only likely possibilities appear to be either that the earlier Enguerrand (supposed father of Lyderic) did not exist at all or that there were two individuals with the same name."
And, I should add, because of the late date of the sources, if there were two men with that name it that doesn't mean Enguerrand father of Lyderic was a real person. Then too, there are no proven descents from the later Enguerrand even though he was a real person.
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FLANDERS,%20HAINAUT.htm#BaudouinIdi...
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc371156065
Justin Durand PRO
11/28/2016 at 12:07 PM
> Can we get ride of all the "fictitious" profiles attached to this "Anseline de Steenland, wife of Otger" profile and move her father " Ingelram of Flanders (Fictitious)" as" Otger" father (as it should be) and use this information as reliable sources and be done with it and move on?
No. Absolutely not. Not without some kind of discussion about what source to use as a backbone for the fictitious line.
It's this kind of wild re-arranging without a consideration of the sources that has led to the problem you're complaining about.
There is a note in Otger's profile that should set off alarm bells. It says, "Baudouin might have been son of Odoacer [Otger], about whom nothing further is known, but Ingelramn seems to have been the ruler dispossessed by Baudouin. Modern genealogists reconcile the discrepancy by making Odoacer the son-in-law (rather than the son) of Ingelramn."
That statement needs to be sourced.
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