Elizabeth Douglas - Did Elizabeth, dau of James Douglas & Countess Joan of Morton marry Sir John Fergusson, 5th Laird of Craigdarroch ?

It would be nice and clean, wouldn't it?

But I'm sceptical, myself -- here's the wikipedia article on the first Elizabeth's mother, who was the daughter of James I of Scotland -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Stewart,_Countess_of_Morton

It mentions specifically that her daughter Elizabeth is known from a charter of 1479, but not heard about later, that evidence being from a Scots Peerage of 1909.

I do find that in the Scots trees the Douglases are easy to confuse, as are the Stewarts.

from http://dna.cfsna.net/GEN/Scotland/Dumfries/Craigdarroch_Lairds.htm

In Glencairn Graveyard there is a stone (see photo) with a latin inscription which has been partly translated to "The burial place of the Lords of Craigdarroch (NEC NON) Lords of Gatloch -- In the year of Our Lord 1635". It is curious that the stone is above a door to the McCall family burial enclosure [Ref: Churches and Graveyards in Dumfries and Galloway]

The Lairds of Craigdarroch

1.0 Mathew FERGUSSON
2.0 John FERGUSON, succeeded 30 Apr 1484; m. Elizabeth DOUGLAS; his son,
3.0 Thomas FERGUSSON, m. daughter of the Lord Crighton of Sanquhar, about 1508 and succeeded 6 Nov 1514 [1522, Assignation]
4.0 Robert FERGUSSON, m. Janet CUNNIGHAM, daughter of the Earl of Glencairn about 1534, succeeded 8 May 1534; his son, [1534 Instrument of resignation]

This looks like a well researched line; I would find it odd a granddaughter of a king not mentioned.

I note that they married into the family of the Earls of Glencairn (my line, in theory). But I don't recall any "royalty" in looking at that tree.

Will keep looking to support my profile entry of Elizabeth, daughter of the Earl of Morton.

From a Fergus(s)on page:

http://www.selectsurnames2.com/ferguson2.html#b

The Fergussons of Craigdarroch
The Fergussons of Craigdarroch in Glencairn parish in Dumfriesshire can claim to be the oldest of the Ferguson clans. The first laird of Craigdarroch flourished in the 14th century.

"John Crawford of Balmakane grants a charter of confirmation to Jonyke Fergusson, Lord of Craigdarroch, for the four merk worth of land of Jargburch and mill of Balmakane, dated July 6th 1398, which is the oldest bearing date I find."

However, these Fergussons are probably best remembered by their associations with the song Annie Laurie and the poem The Whistle.

Annie Laurie is an old Scottish song based on a poem by William Douglas who had fallen in love with the lass. Her family declined the match and Annie Laurie later married Alexander Fergusson in 1710. She lived at Craigdarroch for over fifty years.

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Don't you think the granddaughter of the King would have been part of the legend?

So, we probably should at least add something to each of the names to minimize the likelihood of them getting other 'family' attached (the MP's will keep them separate, but not keep "other family" from getting connected).

Yes, I think curator's notes saying not to merge, specifically to the other profile. And that if someone has evidence that the two are the same, to please contact curator or start discussion. Or, just link to this discussion!

I'm adding another reference to this discussion

From http://www.clanmacfarlanegenealogy.info/genealogy/TNGWebsite/getper...

Notes 

The identity of Thomas Erskine's wife is not certain. She may not have been a daughter of the 1st Earl of Morton although that is often stated, sometimes as Elizabeth but perhaps more often as Janet.

Cites

Sources 
[S474] Colquoun_Cunningham.ged, Jamie Vans.

[S105] Andrew Cuninghame, 1st Laird of Drumquhassil, Blaine L. Berkowitz, Esq, MBE (Hon), FRSA, FZS, Kt.C. OEG, (recieved as e-mail attachment 10 Feb 2012).

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Stir net (membership required) has the line

http://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/dd/douglas03.php#link3

  (c) Janet Douglas (d before 21.02.1490-1) --
  m. Patrick Hepburn, 1st Earl of Bothwell (d 18.10.1508) --
  (d) Elizabeth or Janet Douglas --
The identity of Thomas Erskine's wife is not certain. She may not have been a daughter of the 1st Earl of Morton although that is often stated, sometimes as Elizabeth but perhaps more often as Janet.
  m. Thomas Erskine, 2nd Lord (d by 1493) --

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Macfarlane Clan (above) has this Elizabeth / Janet marrying 2nd to the 5th of Craigdarroch.

I also saw this Elizabeth in a tree as daughter? of Archibald "bell the cat" Douglas, which would make more sense to me, as there might have been a Glencairn property connection?

I'm taking care of the under documented daughter of Joan of Scotland merge warnings.

As one may note, I've added a suffix to the Elizabeth who married the Laird of Craigdarroch to help differentiate; I also figure that particular Elizabeth was NOT born in Morton Castle -- unless there is clear evidence she was. Gosh, that *would* be confusing to have the non-daughter of the Earl & Countess of Morton be born in their castle!

I love toponyms!

I uploaded The Scots Peerage page on the more royal but less reproductive family to their profiles. I suspect the 43 family trees matching are mostly wrong. I'll try and unmatch those with husbands attached so anyone making a case for a husband is forced to look harder. :)

Yes, I have started getting rid of the false matches on the medieval profiles I wander around in, to help keep the problem merges down.\

This is SUCH a problem in the Scots, as I mention above.

A gentle reminder that Scottish toponyms are legally a part of the surname.

"John Fergusson, 5th Laird of Craigdarroch, should be "John Fergusson of Craigdarroch, 5th Laird of Craigdarroch". Adding this suffix to Elizabeth Douglas is not a good idea. It makes disambiguation easy but makes it look like the name is messed up and she was probably really the heiress of Craigdarroch.

So, what would you suggest about Elizabeth Douglas? Just let the MP (and curator note) suffice to keep them separate?

(... since, at the moment, all that's really documented is being of Scotland -- which is true for both Elizabeths)

Could use a disambiguation not based on location. Maybe something like "Wife of John Ferguson" and "Lady Elizabeth Douglas" for the other (since she was daughter of an Earl, even though anachronistic).

Is it right to use "lady" when anachronistic? I don't really like putting family relationships in the Display name, either, that's what a tree / curator notes are for?

How about images? I can find Castle Morton I suppose, and Craigdarroch had a "notable" home built around the time she was chatelaine (if that's the right term for her position in the household).

> Is it right to use "lady" when anachronistic?

I don't think so but many people seem to disagree. Geni is full of princesses and princes, and lords and ladies, who lived in the middle ages but apparently followed 16th century rules ;)

Well, we can only try - and this is why we have "field locking" and the AKA field.

I just found a reference that seems clear Elizabeth, daughter of the Earl of Morton, was not living at the time of his death:

===comments===

According to [https://archive.org/stream/historyofhouseof01maxw#page/n308/mode/1up page 308] of
"The House of Douglas":

>"Morton died about the year 1504, leaving two sons -- (1) John; who succeeded to the Earldom; (2) James; and one daughter, Janet, who married Patrick, Earl of Bothwell."

Though I was being both hilarious and informative, above, I got ungrammatical so I took it out.

What I was saying was that Lady doesn't bother me as much as Mr, Mrs, and Miss. Those I relentlessly take out. Lady and Lord I will leave, as I believe that in general they mean, to current users, "this person did not, to the best of our knowledge, live in a hovel. Or, if it WAS a hovel, it was one of the better ones in the village."

PS I use family relationships in the display name (wife of ....) when we don't know her name and it's the time / place before surnames. But for these Elizabeth Douglas', we "do" know their names; and styling them after their father's won't work ... hey, I can put it in the AKA!

Apparently that matters to some people.

I was posting to my post above!

So, for now, back to simply Elizabeth Douglas; curator notes are distinct enough, one can hope.

Re: curator notes are distinct enough, one can hope.

That presumes they get read.

Be sure and put something in AKA, Dan, without commas so they don't separate into other names. Perhaps two: Elizabeth daughter of unknown Douglas, Elizabeth wife of the 5th Laird of Craigdarroch

I won't mind anachronistic Lord & Lady as much now that we have title fields so Display name doesn't obscure the other name elements.

Of the 21 SmartMatches on Elizabeth Douglas-Fergusson, 5 had husband with no parents for her; I rejected the others which gave her parents of the royal ilk. (Which will last until someone else copies the royal branch into the MH tree...).

I equate the spurious lords and ladies to the many Cherokee Indian princesses. Same basic idea.

If it makes you feel any better, I take them out or move to AKA when I tree clean. And field lock the names.

A couple of years ago I got a bit excited about "our " Elizabeth Douglas being the daughter of the "mute lady" Joan daughter of James 1, and James Douglas Earl of Morton. I rejected it after further online searching. Alison Weir in Britain's Royal Families, does not give marriage and offspring details for her but merely states that she died after 1479. There is plenty of royal blood in all our veins...

Speaking of the Fergussons of Craigdarroch I recently made an observation to Erica that the Fergussons appeared to have no trouble in gaining wives for their heirs from powerful and noble families. Any thoughts on the subject? Dowries, alliances....?

A couple of years ago I got a bit excited about "our " Elizabeth Douglas being the daughter of the "mute lady" Joan daughter of James 1, and James Douglas Earl of Morton. I rejected it after further online searching. Alison Weir in Britain's Royal Families, does not give marriage and offspring details for her but merely states that she died after 1479. There is plenty of royal blood in all our veins...

Speaking of the Fergussons of Craigdarroch I recently made an observation to Erica that the Fergussons appeared to have no trouble in gaining wives for their heirs from powerful and noble families. Any thoughts on the subject? Dowries, alliances....?

Lord John Drummond 1438 - 1519 looks exactly like his granddaughter Elizabeth Hew Douglas 1490 - 1583 and has the same hair and coloring as her grandmother Lady Elizabeth Lindsay 1495 - 1519. I think it's pretty slam dunk whom she was married to.