Sir Roger Carminow, of Carmynowe - Thomas Carminow, Esq. not a son

I think Vivian has Thomas Esq who married Katherine as son of Thomas, son of Oliver. Other sources have the two Thomas as one and married also to Jane Walesboro.

https://books.google.com/books?id=t0U7AQAAIAAJ&lpg=PA268&ot...

http://www.bgwaters.co.uk/petyt14.htm#_ftnref4

"
Margaret’s father Thomas Carminow was the eldest of two sons of Roger Carminow [4] . The date of his birth is uncertain, but he was probably married before 1356, and therefore born about 1326-36 [5] .  His wife Jane Walesbrough was probably a cousin of Thomas’s or related by marriage to the Carminows. Thomas’s great-Aunt Joan had married a William de Whalesbrough who may have been Jane Whalesbroughs grandmother. This indicates that the marriage was one to consolidate lands and patrimonies in Cornwall. ..."

https://books.google.com/books?id=DRwiAQAAIAAJ&lpg=PA76&ots...

Petit pedigree is remarkably unclear on which Thomas Carminow ....

Oddly I am still descended, as Petit & Carminow were cousins ....

This is a "gateway to Colonial American immigrants" line. There should be studies from Richardson et al.

Extinct Cornish Families, Part Il by Mr. W.C. Wade

Read December 18th, 1890. Published in Transactions of the Plymouth Institution & Devon and Cornwall Natural History Society, 1890-1891.

http://patp.us/reading/cornish2.aspx

By his first wife Sir Oliver Carminow had several sons and daughters, to some of whose alliances I shall presently refer. His second wife was Isould, daughter of Sir Reginald, sometimes called Raynold de Ferrers, of the great Devonshire house of Ferrers, now extinct. By her Sir Oliver had one daughter, Margaret, who married Sir John Petyt, of Ardevora, in Philleigh, ...

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I think this chart is from

Sanderlin, Marilyn E. C. A Descendancy from Athon Courtenay of Gastinois, France [about Year 1000 Ad]. Lake Charles, La: Marilyn E. Sanderlin, 1996. Print.

http://scourt.tempdomainname.com/court2de.htm

13-- Joane CARMINOW 
sp-Sir John PETIT (- 1362)
13-- Elizabeth CARMINOW 
sp-Sir John ARUNDEL
13-- Margery CARMINOW 
sp-Simonn BERKELEY

12-- Elizabeth HOLLAND (- 1332) 
sp-Sir Oliver CARMINOW (- 1345)
13-- Sir Roger CARMINOW 
sp-Katherine SHIRLEY
14-- Sir Thomas CARMINOW 
sp-Jane WALESBORO
15-- Philippa CARMINOW
15-- Jane CARMINOW
15-- Margaret CARMINOW 
sp-Sir John PETIT (- 1362)
14-- Sir John CARMINOW (- 1313) 
sp-Joane GLYN
15-- Sir Walter CARMINOW 
sp-Alice TINTEN
16-- Ralph CARMINOW (1320 - 1386)
16-- William CARMINOW Esq 
sp-Margaret KELLEY

I have added some Inquisitions Post Mortem (IPMs) as a source for some of the descendants of Oliver Caminowe. They are very detailed and name many family members. IPMs don't always name a lot of family, sometimes just the heir. These ones's were particularity detailed as a couple of the descendant's died without a heir, so they had to go back several generations to find the next heirs.

For those of us who live outside the United States and cannot gain access to Vivian's Visitations of Cornwall via the goolebooks link, there is another copy that can be viewed for free here:

http://ukga.org/england/Cornwall/visitations/

Page 73 for the descendants of Oliver Caminowe. Vivian used these IPMs as his source.

It's a puzzle pie with pieces that need to fell into place. I agree this Thomas cannot have been a son of that Roger, so there must be missing links. My best luck has been driving from children up, and / or spouses. So will nibble on that. It never seemed "right" to me.

Is there a good general historian or antiquary for the time & place to read? Someone analogous to Eynton for Shropshire ?

Not really. There is a list of older county histories for Cornwall here:

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/och/cornwall.shtml

The pedigrees in them are unreliable.

Sir John Petit married Joan daughter of Oliver Caminowe not Margaret daughter of Thomas Caminowe. That error has come from an unreliable version of the Petit pedigree published in the Visitation of Cornwall 1620.

Did you see my comment here:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000032678166964&

Thomas son of Oliver was a priest, so couldn't have married. (What I've seen of Italian genealogies contain lots of instances of monks having children; I wonder why they are so absent from British genealogies)

While there is no evidence that this Thomas is the son of Roger, the fact that Roger already has a son called Thomas does not really disprove it. I found it bizarre the first time I came across two brothers, both of whom reached their adulthood, with the same first name. But it seems to have been not very uncommon, especially it seems in the West Country. I came across a Devon example, as late as the late sixteenth century, only today. Of course someone always merges the two.

Mark

Thank you, Charlene! Progress!!

So where does this Sir Oliver Carminow, Knt. belong?

Ah! This database suggests Johanna, who married John Petit, was the daughter of the Oliver Carminow who married Isolde Ferrers

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=sandb...

Perhaps we're time traveling now though.

So Joanna Carminow should be merged into Joanna Carminow and now we have a tree that perhaps works? We'll see what happens.

That worked! Here's the new problem:

Sir Michael Petit

No idea if he's correctly placed, if he existed, etc.

Showing as 1st cousin x 19 in this position which is less scary than being direct, because why can't I find good references, or even bad references?

Mark, I agree with you, there are many cases where brothers have the same name. I have several instances of it in my own tree. The Sydenham's are one such family.

There may have been a brother named Thomas who died young or died without issue.

In this case Erica originally had two brother's named Thomas with descendants.

If Roger had two son's named Thomas with descendant's, one Sir Thomas Caminowe, the other Thomas Caminowe Esq., then the eldest living male descendant of Thomas Caminowe Esq. would have inherited the Caminowe estates when Sir Thomas Caminowe's granddaughter died without issue. Instead, what happened was the eldest male descendant of Roger's two full sister's (Elizabeth & Maud/Matilda) inherited the estates. Roger also had two half sister's Margaret and Joan/Johanna. When Margaret's descendant John Cheynduit died without heir, John Petit a descendant of her sister Joan was heir to Johanna Berkley wife of John Cheynduit.

Erica, looking much better now.

I need to add some additional documents perhaps in the overview, people don't seem to look at the attached documents or the sources tab.

http://patp.us/reading/cornish2.aspx

Extinct Cornish Families, Part II by Mr. W.C. Wade Read December 18th, 1890. Published in Transactions of the Plymouth Institution & Devon and Cornwall Natural History Society, 1890-1891.

Polwhele asserts that the first member of the Carminow family was living in A.D. 889, but a much higher antiquity has been claimed for the family; for Cleaveland, in his History of the House of Courtenay, states that a Carminow led a body of British troops to oppose the landing of Julius Cæsar. .....

It is stated that Henry Pomeroy, lord of the manor of Tregony, built the castle there for John, Earl of Cornwall (afterwards King John), in opposition to his brother King Richard, then beyond the seas in the Holy War. He was descended from Ralph Pomeroy, who was a companion of William the Conqueror, and who was such a favourite of William's that he received fifty-eight lordships from him, of which Tregony and Week St. Mary formed two. The Pomeroys have long been extinct. By his first wife Sir Oliver Carminow had several sons and daughters, to some of whose alliances I shall presently refer. His second wife was Isould, daughter of Sir Reginald, sometimes called Raynold de Ferrers, of the great Devonshire house of Ferrers, now extinct. By her Sir Oliver had one daughter, Margaret, who married Sir John Petyt, of Ardevora, in Philleigh, at one time a family of great note in the county, and whose allusive family motto is well known, Qui s'estime petit deviendra grande -- "Who esteems himself little will become great."

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So is Johanna = Margaret?

Or sisters Margaret & Joan Carminow married brothers Petyt?

Roger's half sister Margaret is usually named Margery in documents and Margaret in secondary sources.

Sir John Petit married Joan/Johanna Carminow it's recorded in the IPM for John Cheynduit.

These IPMs are near contemporary documents far better than any secondary source.

Margaret/Margery Carminow married Simon Berkley.

Have a look at Vivian's pedigree for Sir Oliver Carminowe, it's correct.

https://books.google.com/books?id=t0U7AQAAIAAJ&vq=Carminow&...

John Petit aged 60 in 1426

OK, good so far