Markus Spitzer - Markus SPITZER -- DUPLICATES ?

Oooops - 2nd Markus Spitzer profile should have been this one:

Márkus Spitzer

Looking likely dear Peter -

Will try to take a longer more leisurely look later ...

x
pip

Why? There are only 2 profiles:
1) Profile from David Zelikovsky created on Sept 12, 2014
and
2) profile from Michal Gordy creadted on Sept 21, 2012.
These must be sure merged.
A second Markus Spitzer exist in Vienna too. He died on Apr 14, 1920 - see: http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/anno?apm=0&aid=nfp&datum=....

Rudolf:
The widow writes in the obituary: "...ihres Sohnes Moritz...". Why if the Rudolf according to grave stone died in 1919?
Therefore I don't think this Rudolf Spitzer is son of Markus and Betty. He could be later brother of Markus or cousin of Markus, but not son of Markus.

Oooops - 2nd Markus Spitzer:
I thing your Markus with son Adolf is the second Markus which died 1920.

Hello again dear Peter ...

In fact - I rose to the SPITZER challenge tonight.

Preferred to input contributions directly onto respective profiles.

MARCUS/MARKUS 1 & 3 are the same.

MARCUS/MARKUS 2 is definitely NOT.

cf. son Adolf's marriage record:

1893.02.19 - Adolf SPITZER & Katharina SPIEGEL - IKG-Wien MR: Austria, Vienna, Jewish Registers of Births, Marriages, and Deaths, 1784-1911; pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1971-25794-5186-35


https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-LBK5-7GT?i=116&wc=...

Groom: Adolf SPITZER, single, “Kaufmann”, age 27, b. 11 Aug 1865, Siklos, Hungary, son of Markus SPITZER, “Kaufmann”, & Bertha, née KOHN

Bride: Katharina SPIEGEL, single, age 19, b. 19 Dec 1873, Wien, daughter of Simon SPIEGEL, “?”, & Bertha, née ADUTT

Witnesses: Simon SPIEGEL & M. SPITZER

Hoping this all helpful - and I didn't make too much of a mess of it (maybe even I might get a SPITZE prize?!)

Am now leaving you to sort it out!

with a weary but warm GUTE NACHT!

x
pip

PETIT PIPPI PS.

Hmmm - just looked at my copied-to-computer photo of SPITZER gravestone.

Rudolf's DOD - 20 Nov 1919 - doesn't tally with dates given on IKG-Wien cemetery database.

Possible there's a mistake on latter (it does occur) or he may have been "reburied" in parents' grave ...

Now I must get to Bett ...

G'NIGHT ALL!
x
pip

Thank you Hanus and Pip for your contribution. I received a Geni message from a user - asking if the 3 Markus Spitzer are duplicates? Since it is Not very clear, I decided to start this Discussion.

This is also what I have been able to compile for now:
Vienna cemetery DB

Spitzer Betti 66 Year(s)02/14/1921ZENTRALFRIEDHOF I. TOR50167
Spitzer Markus 60 Year(s)07/02/1905ZENTRALFRIEDHOF I. TOR50167 (1020, Afrikanerg. 11, Bankier)
Spitzer Moriz 42 Year(s)07/26/193407/29/1934ZENTRALFRIEDHOF I. TOR50167
Spitzer Rudolf 42 Year(s)02/13/1920ZENTRALFRIEDHOF I. TOR50167

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spitzer Friedrike 75 Year(s) 03/16/1931 ZENTRALFRIEDHOF I. TOR 52a 1 19
Spitzer Markus 71 Year(s) 04/16/1920 ZENTRALFRIEDHOF I. TOR 52a 1 19 (1020, Gredlerstr. 9, Rechtsanwalt, Präsident der Chewra Kadischa)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spitzer Markus 80 Year(s) 08/18/1937 08/20/1937 ZENTRALFRIEDHOF IV. TOR 21 30 3 (1090, Seegasse 9)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Index of the Jewish Records of Vienna

No. Detail Year Last Name First Name Last Name Partner First Name Partner Parents/Annotation
56771 1877 Back Eleonore Spitzer Markus (Max)
121793 1880 Rosenzweig Hermine Spitzer Markus
213791 1888 Spitzer Markus
213792 1905 Spitzer Markus
213793 1880 Spitzer Markus Rosenzweig Hermine
430818 1920 Spitzer Markus, Dr.
430753 1933 Spitzer Dr. Markus L. Haas Johanna M.
------------------------------------------------------------

The tombstone Image was added to at least 3 profiles without any details OR 99% confirmation that it is the same Markus or his family - thus should Not be relied on. It does apply to: Markus Marcus Spitzer

But - I am Not yet convinced that Markus (#1 D.Z.) is same as Markus (#3 M.G)) Markus Marcus Spitzer

Let us continue researching - and hopefully we will come to 99% conclusions.

*Pip - I see you already added details to Markus (#3 M.G) - you may want to wait, unless you have records besides the Tombstone image (that may Not apply) to relay on.

ps. thank you everyone for helping :)

Hmmm dear Peter ...

Took me a time to get my head back together and around the SPITZER question quest again ...

I’m rather surprised that you’re “still not sure”.

Markus/Marcus SPITZER 1:
Most importantly his IKG-death record states he was born in Strassnitz, Mähren & aged 60 (i.e. b. circa 1845 – as confirmed by burial data). In Strassnitz for that year – and year before or after there are NO other Marcus/Markus SPITZER births registered in Strassnitz ... AND this DOB (& DOD) is then confirmed exactly by gravestone inscription*** (i.e. as husband of Betty ORNSTEIN). Therefore, it would follow that he must be the son of Jakob & Katty SPITZER ... and, by process of elimination, MUST BE -
Markus/Marcus SPITZER 3

...

NOW also cf. Adolph LEHMANN’s address listing:

1879: (i.e. for year son Rudolf born) provides the following entry for a Markus SPITZER:

859 - Smolak - Springer - Adolph Lehmann's allgemeiner Wohnungs-Anzeiger - Seite - Wienbibliothek - wbr01 - wienbibliothek

http://www.digital.wienbibliothek.at/wbrobv/periodical/zoom/40072

“SPITZER Markus, Produktenhändler, II, Praterstr. 50”

1891: (ditto son Moritz)

1184 - Spitaler - Stefsky - Adolph Lehmann's allgemeiner Wohnungs-Anzeiger - Seite - Wienbibliothek - wbr01 - wienbibliothek

http://www.digital.wienbibliothek.at/wbrobv/periodical/zoom/62049

“SPITZER Markus, Börseeffekten-Emishdl(?)., II, Praterstr. 53”

BOTH correlate both with the addresses given on sons Rudolf’s/Moritz’s birth records AND the profession of “Banquier”.

N.B. 1879 - The only other Markus listed is a Dr. jur. Adv. living at Ferdinandstr. ... who must be your guy:

Spitzer Markus 71 Year(s) 04/16/1920 ZENTRALFRIEDHOF I. TOR 52a 1 19 (1020, Gredlerstr. 9, Rechtsanwalt, Präsident der Chewra Kadischa)

N.B. 1891 - There’s an additional one who’s a Weinhändler at Währing, Sternwartestr. 16 in 1891 ...)

PLUS ...

1905: (i.e. the year of his death):

1391 - Spillner - Standthartner - Adolph Lehmann's allgemeiner Wohnungs-Anzeiger - Seite - Wienbibliothek - wbr01 - wienbibliothek

http://www.digital.wienbibliothek.at/wbrobv/periodical/zoom/109731

“SPITZER Markus, Bank & Kmins.(?) Ges., II, Afrikanerg. 11”

(this, of course, not only tallies with his noted profession & address on actual IKG-Wien death reg. I traced but also on data you found.)

I’ve failed miserably so far in finding a marriage record for him & Babette, née ORNSTEIN but maybe I’ll strike lucky in the middle of the night sometime soon ...

But I really really REALLY do believe that 1 & 3 are one and the same – are you really really REALLY still a “non-believer”?

HERE’S WISHING EVERYONE A WUNDERBAR WEEKEND!

pip

*** it WOULD be GOOD to have a source cited by somebody for this grave photo ...

and - p.s. I'm sure Hans could clarify a couple of the German bits I coudln't quite decipher ...

Pip de P. James - well done, sounds good - please go ahead, add details to any of the profiles and Merge any profiles that are Duplicates.

I just did Not have all the details you found :)

Again, thanks for your help.

YOU'RE WELCOME dear Peter!

Merge etc. mission now accomplished as requested.

Except I wasn't allowed to zap that erroneous gravestone pic on Betty SPITZER, née KOHN, mother of Adolf's, profile page -

AND in re-altering & entering I noticed I (?) must've initially put Marcus/Markus SPITZER 1's date wrong (4 for 7 of November) - for which I suppose I deserve a couple of minus points.

THOUGH I did get my head round the abbreviated renderings of his profession in LEHMANN's (or so I believe - help Hans?) - so maybe that can counteract my going cross-eyed on the numbers ...

Here's wishing everyone a nice flop Friday evening now!
(not that I'm gonna get one, myself ...)

pip

Hello Pip,
what specifically you could not decipher?

Hanuš

By the way:
Simon Spiegel was "director"
Bank - and KmsusGes. - I don't know what the abbreviation Kmsus mean. Ges. could be Geselle, Gesellschafter and Gesellschaft.

How gallant of you to come to my rescue lieber Hans!

Although, in fact, I do chuckle a little that you too had problems with the abbreviated forms of professions. I finally twigged that Marcus/Markus SPITZER’s LEHMANN’s listing for the 1891 “Cmsnshdl” must mean “Commissionshandel” & the 1905 “Kmsns Ges.” = “Kommissions Gesellschaft”.

Where I still stay stumped is e.g.

A) On Marcus/Markus SPITZER’s actual 1845 IKG-Strassnitz birth reg. – second witness name? (as these are often the fathers of the respective parents – Isak SPITZER, the first, is – the second might provide a clue to Katti’s ...)

B) On Adolf SPITZER’s & Katharina SPIEGEL’s actual IKG-Wien marriage reg. – the profession of Käthe’s father?

Otherwise I hope to discover Babette SPITZER, née ORNSTEIN’s roots too – but, unfortunately, not enough time to ...

ALLES GUTE!

pip

Dear Pip,

- Could you send a link to IKG-Strassnitz birth reg. you mention in A) ?

As for Babette SPITZER, née ORNSTEIN, her family came from Wessely an der March. Her father , Josef Ornstein, was the Burgermeister there.

David

Awesome!

Commissionshandel is German not old "Austrian". In Austria was for a such firm used the word Commissionshandlung! He was a lender against deposited material assets. Such have started many later great banks.

A) I don't see witnesses in the birth entry of Markus Spitzer: http://badatelna.eu/fond/1073/reprodukce/?zaznamId=2591&reproId...

B) Simon Spiegel, father of Katharina Spiegel was "director" - see my message from Aug 5, 2016.

A sunny Sunday hello to you dear David – & lieber Hans too!

- and an apologetic OOOPS from me on top. I’m afraid I must’ve got muddled up maybe because I had too many genealogical pots on the boil at the same time:

A) On Marcus/Marcus SPITZER’s actual 1845 IKG-Strassnitz birth reg. only absolutely basic info is given. The link is on his profile page – but here it is:

1845.11.07 - Marcus SPITZER - IKG-Strassnitz BR: Badatelna.eu | Národní archiv - Židovské matriky

http://badatelna.eu/fond/1073/reprodukce/?zaznamId=2591&reproId...

Marcus SPITZER

Parents: Jacob & Katty

It’s on Jakob & Katty’s actual IKG-Strassnitz marriage reg. that there’s an entry in the “witness” column (as quite usual – usually “fathers” of the happy couple). I’ve looked at it again now and note that only Isak SPITZER’s name appears with his profession “Handelsmann” – i.e. not a second separate witness .... Link is on both Jakob & Katty’s respective pages:

1843.06.07 - Jacob SPITZER & Katy ORNSTEIN - IKG-Strassnitz MR: Badatelna.eu | Národní archiv - Židovské matriky

http://badatelna.eu/fond/1073/reprodukce/?zaznamId=2593&reproId...

Groom: Jacob SPITZER, age 31

Bride: Katy ORNSTEIN, age 18

Witness: Isak SPITZER & ? – to be corrected into “Handelsmann”

Hmmm – and YES, of course, Babette SPITZER, née ORNSTEIN’s parents are clear – SO SORRY – and THANKS for putting my head on again!

Maybe I do need a break? NOW – I’m gonna go and get one out in the sun ...

BESTE GRÜßE!

pip