Arriantjie (Gabrielsz) Van Cathrijn, SM - Not daughter of Catharina van Malabar?

As far as I can see the attribution derives from Mansell's 'Soetkoek Syndrome' - which I do not have, and can only find this quoted on rootsweb:

“…The Catharina in question was the daughter of Kees de Boer and his wife Catharina van Malabar. Kees de Boer was the free-burgher Cornelis Claesz(from Utrecht). Kees is the diminutive for Cornelis. Thanks to the existence of the Groote Kerk marriage entry (9 July 1683) for his Cape-born stepdaughter Adriaentie Gabriels, we can link the man and the nickname. The child Catharina and her siblings all went by their father's patronymic Cornelisz or Cornelissen.”
from Mansell Upham’s ‘Soetkoek Syndrome’, posted by Delia Robertson in http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BUITENPOSTEN/2005-02/...

Does anyone have the marriage entry Source that Private User quotes: "the Groote Kerk marriage entry (9 July 1683) for his Cape-born stepdaughter Adriaentie Gabriels"?

It would be good to upload - or confirm the details of it - here, as it might shed light on the possibility that Adriaentjie Gabriels was also Catharina van Malabar's stepdaughter, not her biological child.

Check the FFY project.

I did. I can't find it. I'll try again.

Here is another option from Cornelis "Kees de Boer" Claesz, SV/PROG 1 profile About:

"He [Cornelis] had an earlier affair with the slave Isabella van Angola in 1661 and he had a child with her. On 25 March 1661 two company officials, Claus Lambertsz van Aelsmeer and Gerrit Gerrits van Elburgh, testified that Cornelis Claasen told them "dat het kind van de slavin genaemt Ijsabelle toe behoorende en wonende bij Jan Reijniersz voor noemd dat't zelwe sijn kint was … dat dit kint van niemand was als hem ende volgensden dat't sijn kind was".

[Contra: On 25 March 1661 de Caep de Goede Hoop Isabella van Angola and Cornelis Claasz were alleged to have been in a relationship, when Kees de Boer was accused of fathering a child by Ysebelle. This was not proven and is unlikely. - on http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g6/p6906.htm]"

For curiosity's sake, I thought I'd add this:
http://haplogroup.org/mtdna/rsrs/l123456/l23456/l2346/l346/l34/l3/n...

10 results from Geno 2.0 of which the majority are from India i.e. it still fits the narrative for Catharina van Malabar.

Whereas N21:
http://haplogroup.org/mtdna/rsrs/l123456/l23456/l2346/l346/l34/l3/n...

5 results from Geno 2.0 of which 3 are from the Philippines.

Not trying to rock the boat; just something worth considering.

i.e. U2c : India and N21 : Philippines, according to the Geno 2.0 results above.

"Catharina was said variously to be from at Batavia, the Malabar Coast, Bengal and the Coromandel Coast"

The West and East coast of India, as well as Sri Lanka, are all represented in the Geno 2.0 samples for u2c1; there is even a South African sample there.

i.e. Arriantjie (Gabrielsz) Van Cathrijn, SM could well be the daughter of Catharina van Malabar, but what does that mean for Cornelia Pyl?

http://www.eggsa.org/sarecords/index.php/church-registers/cape-town...

Clearly states:
Den 18 Novembr
een dochtertje
van Cornelis Claasz
en Catharina van Malbaar
gedoopte swartinne
wiert genaamt Cornelia

Still trying to think through pros & cons of formatting options on the project. This will be an interesting Discussion - so please let's not shelve it if I forget to come back once the project formatting is sorted :-)

If a female slave in private ownership died.....what would happen to any young child she had? Would the owner not perhaps expect another slave they owned to "adopt"/look after the child. Just wondering if this purely speculative scenario could explain a non-biological relationship between Catharina van Malabar and Arriantjie (supposing of course that Judith van Quaelbergen owned 2 slaves named Cathrijn). It's either something like that.....or Kees de Boer had a previous relationship with another slave named Cathrijn (not the same person as Catharina van Malabar) who was Arriantjie's mother, in order to explain the reference to him as her step-father.

Ian, that was my first thought. Two different women. Catrina van Batavia, Catharina van Malabar perhaps.

Cornelia's 1674 baptism above specifically states "Catharina van Malabar" whereas Arriantje's simply states Catharyn:
dito (13 November) een slaevinne kint van den E.H.Comman: Quaelbergen, wiert genaemt Adriaentje de moeder Catharyn tot getuyge stont in persoon van de Juffr Quaelbergen haer slaevinne, 1665-1695, Genealogical Society of South Africa, eGSSA Branch.

http://www.stamouers.com/Shell.PDF
Cape Slave Transactions – R Shell

See the next ladies:

1. 1662.04.22 Catharina Batavi F SELLER: Jacob Does BUYER: Jochem Blanck.

2. 1666.09.30 Catherijn U F SELLER: Maria Buquoij, BUYER: de Cornelis Quaelbergen

http://www.eggsa.org/
Free men (Vrijluijden) 1673 transcript
Man: Cornelis Claesz
Vrouw: Catrijn zwartin
Soons: 1
Dogters: 2

Free men (Vrijluijden) 1679 transcript
Man: Cornelis Claasz:
Vrouw: Catarina v. Bengalen
Soons: 2
Dogters: 4
Knechts: -
Slaven: 2
Hope it help.

http://www.eggsa.org/
Cape Town Baptisms 1667
Dito (13 November)
een slaevinne kint van den E. H. Comman: Quael-
bergen, wiert genaemt Adriaentje de moeder Catharyn
tot getuyge stont in persoon van de Juffr. Quaelbergen
haer slaevinne

Cape Town Baptisms 1673
den 15 Jan. An' 1673
Een soontje van Cornelis Claasz en Catryn van
Bengale wiert genaamt Claas

Cape Town Baptisms 1674
Den 18 Novembr
een dochtertje
van Cornelis Claasz
en Catharina van Malbaar
gedoopte swartinne
wiert genaamt Cornelia

Cape Town Baptisms 1676
Den 15 Martij
Aaltie
Cornelis Claesz van Uijtrecht, en Catharina van Malbaar
(witnesses left blank)

Cape Town Baptisms 1678
Den selfden dito (27 October)
Maria
Cornelis Claessen en Catrina Mallebaar

Cape Town Baptisms 1679
Den 29 (sic - presumably September)
Barent
Cornelis Claessen en Catharina Mallbeaar
Margarita Hofnagel

Cape Town Baptisms 1681
Den 26 December
Hendrick
Cornelis Claessen en Catrina van de kust Cormandell
Arriaentie Gabriels

Cape Town Baptisms 1684
Eodem dito (5 November)
Catharina
Kees de Boer en Catharina
Marytie van juffr. Beroo

About Armosyn
15 September 1686
Eodem dito (8 Sept)
Johannes
de moeder klein Armosi, slavin

Cape Town Baptisms 1689
Eodem dito (26 Junius) een kindt der slavinnen van den Ed. Heer Comm[an]-
deur waer van moeder is Catrina van Bengalen, als ghe
tuijge Claes Cornelisz ende ghenaemt Juliana

Thanks Marie.
Note that the "Catrijn" enumerated in 1673 is described as Cornelisz' "vrouw".
And yet he only married Catharina van Malabar on 15 March 1676.

Was the term "vrouw" used specifically only for a married wife? How would an unmarried partner be described I wonder?

If the first Catrijn died between 1673 and 1676....then who are the 2 daughters enumerated in 1673? Arriaantjie and Cornelia? (who was only baptised in 1674...but might have been born already in 1673). The 4 daughters enumerated in 1679 are presumably Arriaantjie, Cornelia, Alida and Maria).

But if we are looking at a different wife in 1673 from the one in 1679...then both Arriaantjie and Cornelia would be daughters of the first Catrijn and should share the same mtDNA......but unfortunately their descendants don't. Unless the 2nd daughter in 1673 was a child that died?...or perhaps Cornelisz' alleged dau with Isabel van Angola?

The genealogical evidence really does look like there was only one Catharina who was mother of both Arriaantjie and Cornelia. The mtDNA break might well be lower in the tree.

I think we're pretty sure she's not Claas's biological child. Her marriage register tells us this much.

NGK G1 1/1, Nederduitsch Gereformeerde Kerk, Kerken Boek (Mar): ao' 1683
eodem dito [den 4. Julij]
Pieter Gerrits zoo, Jonghman, vryburgh en Aedriantie stiefdogter van Kees de boer,
http://www.eggsa.org/ / http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g7/p7069.htm

Thinking through proving the geni paper trail, I suddenly remembered the conversation we had about Beth's tree https://www.geni.com/discussions/142201?msg=997399&page=1 when she suggested that she thought she descended from Catharina van Palciatta aka Catharina van Malabar

Then Private posted something that was interesting https://www.geni.com/discussions/142201?msg=997632 calling Ariaantje the child of a Maria:

=CATHARINA van MALABAR - can be from Malabar, the South WEST Coast of India, due to the fact that they were usually called from the place they came from.
In most cases she is also referred to as "FROM BENGALE" - now Bangladesh, NEast of India. as well as "van COROMANDEL' the South Eastern coast of India.
At the baptism of her 7 children she is called.
1. Cathryn van Bengale
2. Catharina van Malabar
3. Cornelia van Malabar baptized slave.
4.Again Catharina van Malabar
5. Catharina van Malabaar
6. Catrina van die Kust Cormandel
7. Catharina

In a book concerning the CLASSEN family there are two footnotes she is referred to as Coromandel and from Bangale, a good exemple of the interchangeability of provenances ascribed to slave. and "she is not to be confused with Catrijn from COROMANDEL Coast sold on 9/4/1669 by Jacob Bonghorst Whom J Coon paid for on behalf of Rijkloff Coens Jnr."
She must aslso not be confused with the Catharina ban BENGAAL by whom the SNIJMAN Prog Hans Christoffel had his son Christoffel Snyman the "voorvader" of the Snyman in SA. The last named Cathairna was also known as Catharina v PALICATTA.
This one from PALICATTA was born in India in 1637 and arrived by ship from Malabar though Batacia where seh became the private slave of MARIA VERBURGH Born Maria de BUCQUOIJ. the d.o. Maria Aux BREBIS(AUXBRENIS) (ca 1600-1666). Maria Aux B's 2nd marriage was
to ZACHARIAS WAGENAAR, and that made him the stepfather of Maria Verburgh. He was the 2nd commandeur of the Cape.
Cornelis van Qualburg/de Bucquoij folllowed Wageanar as kommandeur and buys Cathairnaon 30/9/1666. His wife ws JUDIH van den BOOGAERDE. While they stayed in the Cape Maria had a child called Ariaanje Gabriels that was baptsed on 13.11.1667 en the entry read 1667:;Dito (13November) een salvinne kinddt van den EH Command: Quaebergen, wierdt genaamd Adrianetjie de moeder CAtharijn tot getuygen stont in persoon van de juff Quallbergen haar slaevinnen. =

Maria de Bucquoij doesn't seem likely to have Indian origins, but variants on the U2 Haplogroup are found in Germany: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_U2_mtDNA.shtml.
a bit of a stretch, to my mind - but it is perhaps another gap to be left open.

*Proviso: Wikepedia does tell us that Maria returns to Batavia at the end of 1666 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacharias_Wagenaer), so she'd have had to leave the child with Catharina??
Would she perhaps do this if it was born out of wedlock? (She was a widow).

And on the N21 line - profiles between Maria Catharina Fitzgerald, e9f1 and Catharina aren't yet confirmed by triangulation either.

I've been looking at Maria Catharina Fitzgerald, e9f1 and I've got a few questions about that line.

Her mother Geertruida Susanna Grobler, d12e8 died 04/03/1877. Her father Johannes Hermanus Grobler, d4e9 appears before Carel Ziervogel, Landdrost of Zoutpansberg district 13/02/1880 and requests assistance "ten behoewe van zyn drie onmondige kinder Pieter, Barbara Jacomina en Geertruida Susanna". Maria Catharina Fitzgerald, e9f1 was the eldest, but would have been 16 years, 2 months, 17 days old. Could it be that she was already married and therefore not mentioned?

Returning to the quote from the book on the Claasen family: "Maria had a child called Ariaanje Gabriels".

Ariaantje's baptism record contradicts this " Adriaentje de moeder Catharyn".
And the mtDNA contradicts the idea that Judith van Quaelbergen falsified the record and passed Maria's daughter off as that of her slave Catharyn. N21 is South East Asian, and although U2 is found in Europe U2c seems to be India specific.
What does seem possible though is that Verburg could have been the father......and that Catharina was sold to the van Quaelbergens to make sure she and the child had a good position when the Wagenaars departed.

Maria Catharina Fitzgerald's son Johannes Hermanus was born 17 Sept 1881.....so looks like it's possible she could have been married already in Feb 1880.

I will also check in my Claasen book.
Juds

But Verburg dies before they board the ship to SA. The window of opportunity seems small if Catharina is to be pregnant on board.

I hadn't realised Verburg died before 1662 (sorry, should have checked before commenting). With Arriaanjie baptised in 1667 -I agree the timing doesn't look right for Verburg as father (and is beside the point).

Would anyone be able to identify a living descendant from someone further up the line from Maria Catharina Fitzgerald nee Grobler? If the person so identified were willing to do a mtDNA I would willingly pay for it? Would this help?

Of this list of Geni users who are also her descendants: https://www.geni.com/list/index,
Only Private User Private User & Jeanette Blankfield(Pearson) are still active. Check their relationship to you. Is your Most Recent Common Ancestor further up the line than Maria Catharina Grobler Fitzgerald?

Whereas Glynis Van der Watt, N21, who is the other corner of the triangle confirming Maria Grobler Fitzgerald, is your second cousin once removed;

Brenda & Shirley Bihl are your 6th cousins once removed; and Jeanette is your 8th cousin. Check where your tree meets into theirs.