Cobblers vs Cordwainers

Morel

There's a problem with that.

In England (and therefore carried over to its colonies) there was a "big" distinction made, in law, between cordwainers & cobblers.

Only a cordwainer was authorized to work with new leather.

So a cordwainer could also be (probably often was) a cobbler (working with old leather, doing repairs, etc), but a cobbler was not legally entitled to call themself - or purchase the materials - of cordwaining.

I learned all this from Jimmy Choo, by the way.:) And any high end cordwainer working today would be aghast at their earned guild membership being disrespected. :(

So the larger, inclusive category of Shoemakers could then be further refined into Cordwainers where appropriate.

No problem for me with profiles in multiple projects. We also have to stay true to the sources, and there are sufficient numbers of "cordwainer" (Worshipful company of & it's successors & spin offs) to warrant it's own project.

Jimmy Choo alone deserves his own project !

This is from the "about" notes in the Cordwainers project

"Cordwainer" not "Cobbler"

A distinction preserved by cordwainers since the earliest times is, that a cordwainer works only with new leather, whereas a cobbler works with old. Cobblers have always been repairers, frequently prohibited by law from making shoes.

Whenever shoemakers have organized, they have shown a clear preference for the title cordwainer, conscious of the distinguished history and tradition it conveys. Today's cordwainer is no exception.

====

http://www.geni.com/projects/Cordwainers-AKA-Shoemakers-but-not-Cob...

Erica Howton, I understand that there are nuances between the trades. Still, the question is, how far should we push granularity?

One could argue that there is a big difference between a magistrate, judge, an barrister and a solicitor, yet we have them together under one profession:

https://www.geni.com/projects/Legal-Professionals/18747

For purpose of data accuracy, there are frequent situation when we just don't know if a profile was a cobbler or a cordwainer. We just know that he was a shoemaker of some kind.

We can add the profile to both project, but then, in the future someone may ask, "what is your source that that profile was a cobbler?" or "what is your source that that profile was a cordwainer?" The only answer is "darn, I dunno? He is a shoemaker of some kind, but nowhere does it say if he was working with new or old leather".

LIke Bernard Gontier, I'd be darn if I know if he is a cobbler or cordwainer. Sources just say that he was a «cordonnier».

Bernard Gontier

As things stands right now, I don't know why we couldn't have a single project called "Shoemakers, Cordwainers and Cobblers", and include rich content to describe all the nuances of the trade, including sections on cobblers and cordwainers.

Please let me know if I am missing something.

You are, morel.

Cordwainers are defined, they are guild members.

If they are a shoemaker and you don't know if they were also a cordwainer, then they're a shoemaker.

Unless French shoemakers had a trade guild equivalent and the laws governing the use of new leather, they are shoemakers.

Let's put in modern terms. If you're a union plumber, that is a specific, verifiable, on a list occupation, and that could be a specific project for "only" those plumbers. In the USA it would be a large number.

But if the profile is for a 19th century USA plumber, before trade unions, it would go in a more general plumber category.

I appreciate lack of redundancy but there isn't any in this case. A cordwainer is a specific meaning in English; how that aligns for the French trade is something I do not know, you tell me. :)

Shoemaking by the way is an important occupation

From http://www.maggieblanck.com/Occupations/Shoemaker.html

Shoemakers and Cordwainers

In November 3013 [sic: 2013?] Peter Dodge, a cordwainer, wrote:

"Usually the "cottage industry" shoe makers of the early 1800's, cut the leather pieces, then sent them out to be hand stitched in small cottages by women workers.
When the uppers were stitched, they then took them back to the Cordwainer's qualified boot and shoe maker, who in turn completed the product using the welted hand sewn process.

The apprentices did the menial work while learning the trade. The major skill being the sewing on the leather outsole to the welt. This being done with waxed thread, "blended" to a long mature pigs bristle, the holes being made in the leather with an awl, that had a sword like edge at the tip, then the pieces were sewn together."

====

But in terms of putting them all together in one project, with sections, I would find it difficult. When there are lists to "tree build" from it's better for me to have the granularity and the related project (s) rather than sections.

Erica, thanks for this additional information. I'm just trying to understand why this distinction would cause us in Geni to create two separate projects vs. one project that gives a great narrative about the difference between them all.

Like my earlier example with magistrates, judges, barristers and solicitors, these are legally very different. Yet, ultimately they are legal professionals.

Shoemakers, cordwainers and cobblers are legally very different. Yet, ultimately they are footwear professionals.

And like the law profession, many profiles have exorcised many of these flavours. An attorney is often a barrister and a solicitor. Most judges have been either barrister or solicitor before, and they return as an attorney after they have completed their time as judge.

I can't imagine why a cordwainer wouldn't do some cobbler work on the side to make some extra money. And give a cobbler a chance (and the money and political connection) and he will do his best to acquire a cordwainer license. This is all part of the footwear business.

Like we do with the law profession, assign the profile to the Legal Professional project, and then, we explain the special situation for that profile in the About. Take Hilaire Bernard for example, we lists the different roles he occupied as a legal professional throughout his life in the About:

Sieur Hilaire Bernard de la Rivière

I'm not sure we would have gained anything by having a separate project for each role and tagging Hilaire to each.

Can you help me understand a little more. My frame of reference must be wrong. Shake me a bit so that I can reframe myself.

There are several ways to approach projects & they're all fine.

You like sections.

I don't in this case (i do in other cases).

I work on ipad most of the time. It is difficult for me to section off & index. It physically hurts.

I found lists to work with. If it's a small list, it is much easier (for me) to populate a project from that list. No index needed.

I found a precisely defined occupation. So what's wrong with having that precision? It does not suggest anything at all about "other" projects, it's just the way "this" project scope is defined. So I don't find the analogy to a more catch all "legal professions" valid.

I just updated the shoemakers project (which needs development). Wikipedia defines cobblers & Cordwainers as two trades under the rubric "shoemaker.". So perhaps that's the way to go:

Umbrella: shoemakers
Sub project: cobblers (shoe repair)
Sub project: Cordwainers (as defined above)

Then the larger category would become (not an occupation) "the footwear business" under manufacturing. So you could "then" get into jobs performed by the factory girls in my ancestry. :)

PS asking Jimmy Choo to do cobbling work? Would never happen. :)

The umbrella (more generic) project "Shoemakers" with subprojects (more specific) "Cobblers" and "Cordwainers" would work great I think.

When we don't know for sure which of the specific trades a profile was doing, we tag him as a shoemaker. When we know for sure we tag him for the specific trade(s). And there is nothing wrong in tagging profile for shoemaker and cobbler (or cordwainer) at the same time.

This way, we maintain the integrity of the data (we don't have to guess) and we also benefit from the granularity when we do have more specific data.

If everyone agrees, we should go with your idea.

Exactly right.

Hatte is on hiatus but i think It's also less awkward than the AKA in the project name (when we first ran across this in ancestors, we weren't sure what a cordwainer was!)

I think there is likely to have been class differences, which was reflected in the need for precision by the guilds men; but that in reality for most of the world for most of history, there were shoemakers.

In Britain, cordwainer defined a person who made leather shoes as opposed to clogs, which much/most of the country wore. We've clogmakers and cordwainers in our tree.

Clogs are generally associated with the Netherlands but were needed in Britain wherever water was present - especially in the mines and the cotton mills (where water was constantly sprayed to keep it out of the air).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clog_(British)

Clogs were probably the most expensive item that a person owned - hence the British expression 'popped his clogs'.

Good find! If you have enough profiles to warrant a separate project, it's quite an interesting set of related terms & ideas. Of course I glommed onto

"Clog fighting, known in Lancashire as 'purring', was a combative means of settling disputes. Clog fighting and its associated betting by spectators was illegal. ..."

So I'm going with

the shoe trades

Include ....

Shoemakers
Cordwainers
Cobblers

Because I could certainly see more occupations or related terms developing as need be.

The gal i was thinking of was defined as "operative" on her employment records. For the longest time I thought she must have been a spy ! (blushes)

Hatte Blejer (absent until Nov 1) going ahead & changing project names, can always revert if you'd rather

From
* Cordwainers AKA Shoemakers, but not Cobblers to Cordwainers
* Shoemakers AKA Cobblers to Shoemakers

We have the new Cobblers project for the shoe repair tradesmen

I love Geni. This morning, all I knew was that there were «cordonniers». Now, I know about showmakers, cordwainers, cobblers, clogmakers, and... clog fighting! There is never a boring day with Geni.

I'm telling you! It really is amazing.

And if I have it right

The American take on clog dancing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clogging

Is one of the inspirations to step dancing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step_dance

As my wife's family has three generations of shoemakers I thought I'd throw in some job variations:

Shoe Translator - although he is listed as a master bootmaker my wife's gg-grandfather Michael Mehigan is described as a shoe translator in his murder trial (stabbed an employee in the heart with a leather working knife on Christmas Day) and they take old shoes and rework them into new shoes:
http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/t.html
https://archive.org/stream/londonlabourand00mayhgoog#page/n50/mode/...

Boot Closer - sews the leather uppers to the soles, John Michael Mehigan is listed as one when still at home with his father

Chamber Master - making shoes at home, usually employing his wife and children, seems like the bottom of the shoe making pile:
http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/c.html
https://archive.org/stream/londonlabourand00mayhgoog#page/n346/mode...

I suspect shoe translator and chamber master are jobs that don't turn up as often in the censuses as they'd tend to be listed as shoe/boot maker..

Also worth noting that my wife's ancestors lived outside the City of London so weren't under the tight control of the guilds, which would have largely dictated what you could and couldn't do shoe-wise.

And the link I was meaning to include for Boot Closer (and other boot-related jobs):

http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/b2.html

I love it. Such wonderful specialized tasks

I found a German Shoemaker in family I love to add to project. He’s German too.

https://www.geni.com/people/Jacob-Dörrer/6000000066495470846

Billie

Billie June Keaffaber done.

Thanks Erica,