Joane Penfold (Unknown) - Jone's birth name Smith?

Hello Terry,

Well. !!!!

It must be correct. It's all over Ancestry and now the Family Search site.

I wish they would stop submitting incorrect guesses and in any case let us know the sources and reason for making a mess of OUR ancestors. It may be correct but I won't believe it unless someone quotes a Primary source.

I spend most of my time pointlessly messaging people on Ancestry to get them to correct their errors, some do and are grateful for the help. It annoys me because the errors become the accepted truth. I keep all my guesses private until I can verify them.

I can find no proof or evidence from any of the Sussex sources I have here at home for Joan's name being Smith and there are no marriages recorded in Sussex in the surviving registers for Oliver and Joan. only records in Angmering are baptisms and burials of their children and one for husband Oliver. This was the Civil Ward period when populations were mobile, so it's quite possible she came from Wiltshire. We need a will for her father or relative, marriage licences for Sussex are missing for that time. There were Smiths in Sussex too, so who decided she came from Laycock ?

However, the only burial for a Joan Penfold about 1689 was in Horsham, no burial found for 23 May 1689 in Angmering

BUT...

Her son wrote his Will in 1702 and he died in 1701 and he mentioned his mother by name :-

Hugh Penfold, senior of Sompting. Will 14 Oct 1702. Probate 1 Feb 1706/7

14th October 1702 Hugh Penfold Senior of Sompting Sussex Gentleman
my loving wife Mary Penfold
my son John Penfold
my Mother Joane Penfold
my son Hugh Penfold Junior (sole executor)

So she was still alive in 1702.

There was a burial in West Tarring which is close to Sompting and Angmering. No proof it was her but more likely than being buried alive in Horsham in 1689, or Angmering.

Joan
SURNAME PENFOLD
Burial Date 15 - Jan
YEAR 1716
PLACE West Tarring
Expr1 St.Andrew

Unfortunately no age given,

I have access to the Sussex Family History Group database and have copies of some PR transcripts. Also the Sussex Marriage Index.

Have fun.

All the best

Alan

Thanks Alan, I've altered her death details but it would be good (mentioned in another thread) if you have sources available if you could copy and upload to Geni and cite the facts relevant to the people involved.

Hello Terry,

Sources available I have given in my reply for this particular problem..

The Will of son Hugh shows she was alive in 1702.

The Parish Register burial entry is for a Joan Penfold but not to be taken as evidence because it doesn't state it's the correct Joan. As I mentioned, it's more likely to be her if she was born in 1630 and was 86 when she died, there were not many Joans married to Penfold there at that time but this one could have been an unmarried daughter burial, but then it usually says daughter in the transcript.

I spend ages correcting Ancestry, I won't be spending ages correcting GENI too because it's an uphill struggle and I don't have the time. In fact I'm leaving Ancestry soon too because it's so wrong and time consuming not to mention frustrating

I fully understand and as a curator on Geni I try to ensure it is as accurate as possible and doesn't rely on people's trees elsewhere. This is why I asked about the source. If you have a copy of the will it would be useful to have it associated (in the 'sources' tab) so that we can demonstrate which information is cited by primary or secondary sources. Not to worry if you don't have a copy. Having refernce to it in these discussions is at least a start.

Hello Terry,

I can't open discussions but have added some baptism sources for Alice Oliver b 1590 wife of Hugh Penfold and her siblings.

To be honest, the whole of Alice Oliver's ancestry is a mess as far as I can see. The parish registers for the whole of Sussex give no insight to how anyone came to their decisions and no sources are quoted to help see why. Where did they get the 15th century info from, I wish they would say. The Lyminster Registers give some help but certainly do not show who Alice's father Thomas was descended from and there is no evidence to prove that her mother was Joan Smith of Thakeham. Alice's grandfather could just as easily be William Oliver who married Alice Hobjohn as Ralph and Joan. Naming conventions suggest so as do the Sussex Depositions which show William and Alice moved to Clapham in 1590, Alice died there in 1593. Thomas baptised Alice in 1590 and his sons there. Thomas does not appear to have named any child Ralph or Joan but did baptise William and Alice.

This has been driving me mad and keeping me awake, I hate the family being recorded incorrectly. I made the mistake of trying to unravel Lyminster, I think I have done better than some but the whole of West Sussex has to be looked at too, which I did.

Here are some notes

Ecclesden Farm is still in Angmering. However the existing Farm is not the same property which the Penfolds held. Ecclesden Green is a lost village near the manor, south of Ecclesden Farm on Google maps and the Penfold plot of about 20 acres was on the South edge of this lost village green at the time Hugh and his son Richard lived there.

The only surviving baptism for Alice is in nearby Clapham in 1590.

Clapham St Mary the Virgin 1571 - 1837

Alice OLYVER

Sex d

Baptism Date 30-Mar 1590

Father Thomas OLYVER

Mother OLYVER

And she died in 1660 after being executor of her husband's will of 1659

Angmering PR

1660 Jul 23

Alice widow

William Oliver and his wife Alice moved to Clapham from Lyminster in 1590 where wife Alice died in 1593. PR and Deposition of 1609. Could these have been Thomas' parents ? naming conventions of Thomas' children suggest so. Unless evidence comes to light to prove Thomas' parentage then I am working on this at home, privately.

William OLIVER. Occupation : Yeoman Residence : Clapham (3). Age : 60 Birthplace : Lyminster Date of Deposition : 1593.03.00 WSRO Reference : 7/46v

b 1533 in Lyminster, Clapham for 3 years from 1590, did all the family move there then ?

This William was son of Thomas Oliver of Weeke (Wick), Lyminster Parish Register, William married Alice Hobjohn there 16th June 1570. Sussex Marriage Index.

Clapham St. Mary 1573-1887 FORENAME Als SURNAME OLIVER BURIAL DATE 28-May YEAR 1593 OTHER wife of William PLACE Clapham LOCATION St.Mary

A Thomas baptised children in Clapham but there is no record of Joan as his wife, the only Thomas and Joan were baptising children at the same time in Ford, near Lyminster, however that Joan stated her birth place as Lyminster, but for the correct year in 1606 deposition.

Joan OLIVER. Occupation : Wife of Thomas, Husbandman Residence : Ford (40). Age : 47 Birthplace : Lyminster Past residences : Lyminster Date of Deposition : 1606.01.31 WSRO Reference : 10/198v

The only surviving marriage for a Thomas and Joan is the one we know about to Johane Smythe. Alice's father Thomas is supposed to be the son of Thomas son of Ralph according to various online trees, however, the Parish Register for Lyminster states that Thomas was born in 1597 the son of Thomas, the son of Ralph, so he could not have been the father of Alice born in 1590, or the husband of Joan Smythe. As far as I am concerned this proves the online trees are wrong as far as Thomas' parentage goes. There were a lot of Thomas Olivers just in Lyminster Parish, in this time period at least 4 families all naming children William, Thomas and Alice.

Lyminster St Mary Magdalene 1566 - 1812 First names Thomas Surname OLYVER Sex s Baptism Date 17-Apr Baptism Year 1597 Father first names Thomas Father surname OLYVER Abode Tortington Notes Father given as sonne of Raffe Olyver Town Lyminster County West Sussex

From the records in Hugh and Alice's lifetime they were leasing property in Arundel High Street to people, it is possible that when Alice married Hugh in 1612 she was living in Arundel, as suggested by the Licence and Register, she was not necessarily born there and her family may well have moved there inheriting property.

The Licence is for Hugh and Alice on 23 Sept 1612 and the marriage appears to be a transcription error of Henry and Alice on 28 Sept 1612, the marriage took place in Arundel.

Extract from the Sussex Marriage Index: Place: Archdeaconry of Chichester Marriage Licence, Date: 23 Sep 1612: Subject: Hugh PENFOLD Spouse: Alice OLIVER, Arundel

Extract from the Sussex Marriage Index: Place: Arundel, West Sussex, Date: 28 Sep 1612: Subject: Alice OLYVER Spouse: Henry PENFOULD (transcription error ? )

Searching of SFHG database of baptisms, the only record found for an Alice Oliver was the one quoted above, daughter of Thomas no mother's name given.

This Thomas appears to have baptised a son in Lyminster then moved to Clapham to have a family baptised there, Alice, William and Michael. Depositions and Protestation Returns show the family live on there but no mention of any Joan.

With the mention of Arundel as Alice's parish at marriage, there is burial which could suggest the family had moved from Clapham to Arundel, as long as we accept Joan as Alice's mother and wife of Thomas.

Joan SURNAME OLIVER BURIAL DATE 4-Oct YEAR 1615 OTHER wife of Thomas PLACE Arundel LOCATION St.Nicholas

There are no hard facts to suggest the parents of Thomas or who this Joan was, we have only one marriage and there should be a few, because there was more than one Thomas and Joan partnership then. I have found at least 3 instances of a Joan with a Thomas Oliver but there is only one marriage record surviving.

This I found interesting. I can find no references at all to a Jaqueline Smith, however spelled, the dates are a few days apart from the Johane Smith marriage to Thomas Oliver and the father's name is the same as I have seen some use for 'Joan. Chiltington is adjacent to Thakeham, also a search for William Smith of Chiltington shows a man who was likely the brother of 'Jaqueline' settling in Angmering at the same time.

Thomas of Tottington son of Wm of Tottington M 20/Feb/1586/87 Jaqueline Smith d Wm of Chiltington dd

Just suppose there are transcript errors for Johane and Jaqueline due to faint or poor 16th century records, perhaps the marriage for Joan and Jaqueline are the same but have come to us down the years as 2 different ones because of errors, this would give a different father for Thomas. After all Thomas Oliver of Tottington, son of William Oliver of Tottington, married 'Jaqueline' Smith and their daughter Johane was baptised and buried 8th June 1589. It begins to make a bit of sense to me when referring to the names of the Olivers in Clapham.

There were so many William and Thomas Olivers in Lyminster Parish at the end of the 16th century that it is almost impossible to guess which one died when and who Thomas the elder, senior and junior refer to in the burials.

Alice's father Thomas left to live in Clapham, about 3 miles away, there is no record of his burial there so it is just possible he moved his family back to Tortington, which is as close to Arundel as it could be without actually being called Arundel, this would explain why Alice married there in 1612 and why there is a record of a Joan Oliver's death at the same time as her 1 day old daughter Anne in 1615 in Arundel Register. If Joan was 20 when she married this would give her an age of about 49 for this birth, which could be why she didn't survive It may not be her but it's something to research.

I just can't see how anyone has come to the conclusion that Ralph was Thomas Oliver's father from the Parish Registers alone, there seem to be no surviving wills, one Subsidy from 1525 and a few Depositions. Even having access to all of the Sussex Registers has not helped except to show how some of the families moved from place to place.

Even Debrette's stops short of giving Joan the surname of Smith. The baptism of Alice only records her father's name and there appears no other evidence of her mother's identity other than to assume that the marriage of Thomas to Joan applies to her parents.