Elizabeth ap Gruffudd (Bourgogne) - Elizabeth de Bourgogne

By the way, I glanced at the overview on Philippe's profile and do not see an Elizabeth listed in the various accounts of his children.

No, though he has many illegitimate children.

BUT She's not one of them -- the About section for her husband, Thomas, earl of Cardiff, sounds right.

This is Elizabeth Gruffydd -- not "verch Gruffydd" though; her father is John Griffitth, Sheriff of Stafford.

Yes, looking at Phillipe's many mistresses, I did not see the mother of Elizabeth either.

I have done some work. There was a more developed and curated profile of Elizabeth so I merged the two trees. I haven't resolved data conflicts and I have this one additional merge where I don't know which wives are duplicates:

http://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000000072986605?highlight...

Also the former mother of Elizabeth who I disconnected her from needs to be sorted out somehow. She's not listed as one of the mistresses of Phillippe of de Bourgogne.

When I have time, I'll try to figure out how Thomas' wife ended up as a daughter of Phillippe, likely through some unfortunate merge. It may be that there is an Elizabeth that belongs elsewhere.

Thank you! I am in the midst of other Welsh tangles. Of which there are plenty. And more plenty.

That's a LOT more clarity in this tree though -- thank you!

I don't come up with the same analysis on this. If you go back in the history of Philippe, his 2nd Great Uncle's name is Charles V, known as 'the Sage.' You can see his Wikipedia background with his nickname of 'Sage.' Elizabeth who marries Thomas Hynaf ap Gruffydd has a daughter that is named Sage verch Thomas which seems to be a 'nod' to her 2nd Great Grandmother's naming of her son Charles V 'the Sage.' I think it is too much of a coincidence that his nickname is 'Sage'.... and so is the great-great granddaughter.... unless there is a connection via the mother, Elizabeth, as one of 24 purported mistresses of Philippe.

Well, this is of course only supposition, so won't hold -- also, Charles wasn't named "the sage" by his parents -- that's a nickname he got later -- also, though it's true the girls' name Sage came into Wales from the Norman French, it wasn't an unknown name at this time, and it came in before Charles got his nickname.

I would also note that, for a female, "Sage" is an alternate spelling for "Saeg."

Yes, a supposition. The list of Mistresses is by far incomplete and therefore the births. I notice there is a 8 year lapse between known illegitimate births... while others are closer together. Elizabeth's birth falls in that 8 year period. Most likely that is just a lack of available information as to Mistresses and births... rather than Philippe was not continuing his pattern. Of course, 'Sage' was a nickname and given at a later date. Charles 'the Sage' died in 1380. Sage verch Thomas was born in 1465. In the particular Davis line that I am researching and developing a database... I have not come across 'Sage' as a name in any descendant.... and it is curious that it just happens in this possible line. I'm not going to rule this out. Are you following a Davis line and that is your interest - or are you following some other interest?

I'm an historian, a medievalist. My interest is in making the medieval Tree clean. I focus on the Welsh.