Joris Jansen Rapalje - Wallabout name source... The Wall river in the Netherlands?

page 10 "The family of Rapalje was originally from France."

The River Waal is in South Holland.

So we have a French family that we know lived in Amsterdam (ie North Holland) prior to emigrating to America naming their property after a river in South Holland? George's two sentences are self contradictory. A far more defensible statement would be that Wallabout was named after the Waal because it was so similar in appearance physically (i don't know if it is but at least the statement would be internally consistent).

IF Wallabout is named after the Waal what does the "about" represent? I can remember having this conversation already, i dont recall the conclusion but it did seem more believable than this theory, IRC.

http://www.distancesfrom.com/de/map-from-Jever-to-3151-Hook-of-Holl...
If the claim that Catalyntje Trico (Mrs. Rapalje) is accurate, that is that she came from Jever... then the claim that the Wallabout was named for the Waal rings true... don't you think.... Jever is at the mouth of the Waal in Holland...

All I'm doing here is reporting sources... the third great grandson could well be mistaken... but if the story was passed down in his family, then ther might be a variation that is true... Catalyntje/Joris could have merely jeft by that estuary (?).... It would be like the Plymouth to Plimouth story for the Puritans...

Another thought... The Trico couple spoke french... In my new theory, Waal is attached to the word "bout" ... meaning end... In other words,end of the Waal...

~ I wouldn't bet my life on this....

Waal à bout... The end of la nouvelle Waal... vois-la! ;)

:) it's fun to speculate, i am only playing devil's advocate.

Wallabout is not the end of anything, it's a bay in the side of the Hudson River where a creek (with an unpronounceable Indian? name) comes down to the river. Doesn't sound much like the "Mouth of the Zambezi".

I thought we had settled the question of where the Trico's came from, Northern France? i don't recall any mention of Jever.

Regarding the Plymouth allegory i am not clear on the trade route between Amsterdam and New Amsterdam. Joris and Cat definitely embarked from Amsterdam, the ship may have called into a port at the mouth of the Waal (Rotterdam?) but then again why would it bother stopping after the first day of sailing in a month (two?) voyage.

Two other origin theories i recall were:

English: "Gee there's a lot of WALLoons ABOUT these parts!"

Dutch: some sort of contraction for "whale tail" as per the shape of the bay or perhaps spotting of whales calving in the area.

I agree, it's fun to speculate... Yet, if Rem Rapalje is passing down a family story in his book (of the early 19th century), we might be getting closer tot he truth about the name... I like the "Waal" river connection...

By the way, I've something else to share: back to "the painter" issue: I'll post it in a new discussion.

From http://whitmans-brooklyn.org/portfolio/wallabout-bay-from-fort-gree...

Wallabout Bay is named for the Walloons, French speaking Protestants known for their tolerance and liberality, who left Holland for New Netherland, later “Breuckelen.” Wallabout translates roughly as “Bay of the Walloons” and is today the site of the former Brooklyn Navy Yard.

Navy Yard at left with Manhattan beyond; Whitman’s working-class neighborhood at right.

1) The Whitman's piece doesn't seem to be sourced.
2) George Rapalje at least has his family's lore attached to it...

Anyway, if, and I know it's a big if, Joris and Catalyntje named the Bay... Why would they call it "Bay if the Walloons"? That would mean they were speaking of themselves in the 3rd person.... If they named it, then they might name it for a place whence they came... and... being at the very least bi-lingual there are other options.
In the end it's not so important... Waal or Walloon...

..but don't rely on me.. I even got it wrong about 'Jever" :)

Did J&C name it? Is the name a later addition to the area's culture? As you say it would be odd for the locals to refer to the locality "in the third person", so to speak, but if the name comes later.

I know Erica will just find more references to prove me wrong but i always liked the "whale" origin best. :P

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/10/whale-shark-numbers-su...

I vaguely remember Wallabout being a contraction of two longer dutch words (bear in mind Walloon was closer to DUtch language than French... or did i just make that up?!).

If i get the urge i will trawl thru all the old discussions and see if i can find it, i suspect it is a discussion connected to Cat ratherthan Joris.

Private User

In passing i stumbled across this passage from Teunis Bergen in his "The Bergen family; or, The descendants of Hans Hansen Bergen"

"It has been asserted by our early writers that several
families of Walloons, who emigrated with Rapalie and his
wife, in 1623, (who strictly speaking are the inhabitants
of the frontier between Belgium and France,) settled as
agriculturalists at the " Wahle-Bocht, or the Bay of the for-
eigners,^' since known as the Waaleboght in Brooklyn, as
early as 1624 or 1625* Of a settlement at so early a pe-
riod at this location, there is believed to be no documen-
txiry proof, a rigid search failing to produce from our
Colonial and early records evidence to sustain the asser-
tion."

The * is a reference to O'Callaghan's N.Netherlands, vol.1 p.101

The ^ is a transcription error and should show as " not ^'

O'Callaghan's N.Netherlands, vol.1 p.101

https://archive.org/stream/historyofnewneth01ocal#page/100/mode/2up

O'Callaghan is of the opinion (see the note at the bottom of page 101) that "Wahle" is an Old German word for foreigner. Any old Germans out there reading along who might care to comment? :)

Not pleased with their isolated location, they soon removed to the northern shore of Long Island, and reared their log cabins upon the banks of a beautiful bay, which they called Wahle-Bocht, or "the Bay of the Foreigners."

The Project Gutenberg eBook, Peter Stuyvesant, the Last Dutch Governor of New Amsterdam. By John S.C. Abbott

Also here

https://books.google.com/books?id=Y5ThAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA234&lpg...

Stories of Persons and Places in America  By Helen Ainslie Smith

The Walloons were a border people who spoke more German or French than Dutch; whose name meant "Foreigner."

"it was on the Wable Bocht Sarah Rapalje was born - the first child of European parents born on American soil."

[SIC: disputed, there's a little boy with this claim also]

Using wahle in a sentence:

Wähle nie deine Frauen und deinen Stoff bei Kerzenlicht.
Never choose your women or your linen by candlelight. proverb

----

Wouldn't Wahle have been more old Dutch rather than old German?

"The term Walloon is derived from *walha, a Proto-Germanic term used to refer to Celtic and Latin speakers.[5]"

5. John Ronald Reuel Tolkien, English and Welsh, in Angles and Britons: O'Donnell Lectures, University of Cardiff Press, 1963.

(I never argue with Tolkien, he has the One Ring to Rule Us All!)

http://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/battery-park/highlights/12796

Walloon Settlers Monument
This text is part of Parks’ Historical Signs Project and can be found posted within the park.
This nearly ten-foot-tall granite stele at the northwest corner of Battery Park by Castle Clinton was designed by noted architect Henry Bacon (1866–1924). The monument and its gilded inscription commemorates the Walloon Settlers, a group of 32 Belgian Huguenot families who joined the Dutch in 1624 on the ship Nieu Nederland (“New Netherland”) to colonize New Amsterdam, in what is now called the island of Manhattan. Architect Bacon also designed Washington, D.C.’s Lincoln Memorial (1911-22) and Brooklyn’s Metropolitan Pool (1922).

The Walloons were natives of the County of Hainaut in Belgium who had fled to nearby Holland to escape religious persecution. Made to feel unwelcome in Holland, the Walloons, led by Jesse de Forest, first appealed to the British in 1621 for permission to settle in the British-controlled Virginia colony. When their request to the British was denied, they petitioned the Dutch West India Company to allow them to settle in the Dutch-controlled colony of New Amsterdam. Their application was granted and the Walloons left Holland in March 1624, landing in New York on May 20, 1624.

-------

BUT if I remember correctly the Rapalje's were not part of this group. They were earlier and lived in Fort Orange first.

You are correct Erica, Joris & Cat settled in Albany (Ft Oranje) where Sarah was born and then relocated to NA before later moving across to Wallabout. I dont remember the exact sequence but Sarah may have moved there first with her husband (certainly she was not born there!).

I agree that as far as language experts go JRR's a pretty good source.

I think that Wallabout is definitely a contraction of Wahle-Bocht meaning Walloon Bay. Who coined the name and when is unlikely to ever be resolved.

I'm going to stick with an interpretation of the Dutch word "boght". Synonyms being: bend, curve, turn, turning, bight, creek. My bias is based on the geographical/geometric configuration of the (now named) East River...

2) Strictly speaking: Belgium did not exist in the 1600s. I hope to be more historically correct. And, religiously speaking, Belgium was a Catholic creation (!) Consequently, I feel it's appropriate to shy away from such an association in nomenclature and labeling when there were no Catholics living at Waal-boght circa 1650.... but, I'm be revisionist perhaps...

3) Just the other day Alex and I were discussing the lack of likelihood that this multi-national group who settled on the shore would have referred to themselves as Walloons... There were other nationalities too, such as the equally illustrious Dirck "the Norman" Volkertson. Dirck de Noorman
He lived on that shore very early on... Before the Rapalje family ?

At any rate neither Dirck nor Joris were born Walloon and they were two very prominent settlers whose frontier allegiances are hard to pin down. I tend to feel their attitude was they were "in it for themselves" and not in it particularly for some variation of "crown and country".

Just for fun and to be thorough, I am in the early stages of working on a cross-referenced document. http://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000038050782108 . Maybe I'll get a more complete understanding of all the countries of the settlers of "the bend".

I keep reminding myself of the adage "What's in a name?".... I know I'm being a little too obsessive about this. I have a romantic and perhaps off-beat way of looking at things. I tend to revel in the discovery of the peculiarities of given name like Grammercy which is also based on shape... from the Dutch word for "a little knife".... Krom messie
Similarly, I feel that the "bay" along the shore of future Brooklyn was named for its shape... very early on.

Thanks to both of you for drawing together all the other unconfirmable details about this New-Amsterdam-icanna :)

One last thing... We should consider the inclusion of the opinion of an 18-19th century Rapalje... He believes as I do and spoke of this in his book on his travels of the world. It was my reading of his words that got me started with my opinion.... > His familly saw the first syllable as pertaining to the Waal river....The opinion was passed down for generations (!) I'll see if I can find the link.

regards to you both,
MMvB

A Narrative of Excursions, Voyages, and Travels, Performed at Difference Periods in America, Europe, Asia, and Africa (1834)
by George Rapelje
https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Narrative_of_Excursions_Voya...

Speaking of Teunis Bergen's book: Teunis (1806-1881) lived a generation or two later than George Rapalje (August 9, 1771 -1835)

see page 10-11
https://books.google.com/books/reader?id=6slAAAAAYAAJ&printsec=...

Of minor interest: One of the main original settlers of the Wallabout Bay area was Hon. Nicasius Laurens de Sille who was from Arnhem... yet his son Hon. Nicasius Laurens de Sille came to New Netherland and then returned to the Netherlands to die at WAAL-wijk.

I guess I'm just beginning to see how the Waal root noun floats everywhere!
:)

Please excuse the mistake above...(the son is not Nicasius. He is Laurens de Sille)

Would Rapalje been "naming" the area, though? He was not significant in the affairs of New Amsterdam; originally a hired hand of no particular skill or connections (the endurance of his family is the last laugh ...)

To me the name "the Wallabout" is indeed from "The term Walloon is derived from *walha, a Proto-Germanic term used to refer to Celtic and Latin speakers."

If I understand correctly, the "Walloons" are a linguistic grouping in (what is now) North Belgium. And the ones who came to America were Protestant seeking refuge from the Dutch and British colonies.

Michael, I dont understand the connection between Joris and the river Waal.

Joris and his family are from Pris in France,
his wife Cat and her family are from Pris,
Joris and Cat marry in Amsterdam,
Cat's sisters marry in Amsterdam,
Cat's sisters stayed in Amsterdam and their children were born there.
Joris and Cat left Amsterdam on a WIC ship bound for a WIC colony,
the WIC (like the VOC) was based out of Amsterdam and finally

Where is their connection to the Waal?

"At any rate neither Dirck nor Joris were born Walloon ..." that is a bold statement to make considering what we know of the man. Where does this idea come from?

Ignoring where he was born, when he got married in Amsterdam's Walloon church to a girl from "Walslant" he was living in on 't Waelepadt.

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and walks like a duck ...