O'Beolan or Ross

Who is this person, also named a 4th Ross Earl?

Hugh, 4th Earl of Ross

Erica Howton

Is that a trick question? Clearly it is a duplicate profile of the Hugh that Eugene linked.

Father matches, 2 wives match, siblings match, several children match.

Eugene Thomas

Style it however you like, it is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy%27s_law that whatever you do someone will come along in a weeks time and change it all :)

It was to get someone else to do the dirty work for me, Alex. :):)

Since I curate some of the Ross earls, I am looking for help in getting the Gaelic names correct, as well as all the AKA's and determining a "best known as" name. My ability to use accent marks is very limited, and I hear Gaelic is chock full of them?

In return Eugene & I offer body blocks .... I mean, locked names because we have consensus.

For this profile specifically i think the name Hugh O'Beolan is correct as Earl of Ross is the family title and Ross is the clan name.

I would drop the numbering system as they are usually arbitrary depending on the author of that particular genealogy. Wikipedia does not number him and another site that i found calls him the 5th Earl

http://www.greatclanross.org/htext5.html

Frankly the name is a horrible mash at the moment which i am hoping Erica has locked to avoid an edit war rather than because she thinks it is complete??

The Gaelic "Aodh" should only be included if we think he was actually speaking Gaelic, even then i would be inclined to set the First Name field as "Aodh" but the Display name as Hugh, certainly not have both in the one field.

The French "de Ross" in the Surname field just seems pretentious and as i said above is not actually a surname as far as i can tell so should change to O'Beolan.

Having a Birth surname of "mac Uilleam" might be accurate but i have not seen it used anywhere else, it is actually a Scottish(Gaelic?) patronym meaning "son of William". If the family's surname is O'Beolan i would use this also in the Birth Surname field, perhaps putting "Aodh mac Uilleam" in the AKA field.

Suffix, i had to Google "mormaer" which turns out to be the Scottish word for Earl so having both in the suffix is superfluous and "4th" without a reference to clan Ross is meaningless. As default on Geni is English i would set suffix as "Earl" or "Earl of Ross".

You could also create multi-language tabs for Scots Gaelic and French then fill then in appropriately. I think in this period Hugh quite possibly spoke Gaelic at home and French at work, probably didn't know a word of English! (well maybe one or two four letter ones learnt from soldiers).

I dont have accents either (or at least am too IT illiterate to work it out) one easy cheat i use when working on vikings is to google the English version of the name then use the multiple language tabs on wikipedia to swap to the native languages and then copy and paste the names from those wiki pages :)

The name modules are unlocked to get worked on,

I am quite sure he was a Scottish Gaelic speaker so perhaps start with that? I hadn't thought of the French, good one. So that's two languages to set up. Would he have had a Latin name?

I'm not sure of the O'Beolan refers to his house or property or what - O' is an Irish "son of" I thought?

Thanks for your responses. I will go through the line and utilize O'Beolan where they are listed and AKA the "other" names. And MP all the changes made.

Wait - we don't know what O'Beolan is. So don't rename anyone that.

I think we need to prioritize entering the Gaelic & French names using the multiple language modules & copying & pasting the Gaelic & French names from Wikipedia. The directions to do so are here:

http://help.geni.com/entries/70432150-How-do-I-add-multilingual-nam...

Also, is the title Earl of Ross? Occupation Mormear?

What a lovely puzzle! Thank you for inviting me.

The "Hugh O'Beolan" bothers me, as it's not Scots form, BUT as far as I can tell at the moment -- somebody correct me if this isn't true -- the many chronicles of the period (which mostly concern themselves with listing the dead, and though sometimes English or French, are mostly Scots) refer to him as Hugh O'Beolan.

So it's not just what he's known as to history, and wikipedia and the like -- it was a name he was recognized by.

So I'd hate to lose it. Even though, since his father was a William -- Uilleam -- the "macUilleam" makes most sense.

I'm going to see if I can track this down further.

Erica Howton:

Mormaer and Earl are essentially the same title; he's the Earl of Ross, or the Mormaer of Ross, or both, which mean the same thing. But Mormaer is not his occupation. It's his title in Scots.

Ah. Got it.

The O'Beolan is a clan name, from an early alliance with the rulers of Tara.

It IS Irish, which is why it was bothering us all. BUT it's correct in this instance, because of the clan alliance.

O'Beollan Surname Meaning
Descriptive Writing for introductory reference

O'BEOLLAN: The family name of Fercher Mac-in-tagart, first earl of the line of Ross. The name seems to belong to the herenachs of St. Maelrubha in Applecross (Reeves, Adamnan, p. 400). It was a common name in early times, and was borrowed by the Norsemen as Bjolan in Landnamabok .
— The Surnames of Scotland (1946) by George Fraser Black (1866-1948)

O'BEOLAN: This was the patronymic or Gaelic name of the Earls of Ross, and we find, from the oldest Norse saga connected with Scotland, that a powerful chief of the North of Scotland called Beolan, married a daughter of Rollo, the founder of Normandy.
— Patronymica Britannica, written: 1838-1860 by Mark Antony Lower

The Gaelic name of the Clan Ross is Siol Aindrea or Clann Aidrea, meaning the "race of Andrew". They are descended from the same progenitor, Beolan or Gilleon na h'Airde.

https://books.google.com/books?id=_U0Ii-Om3EwC&pg=PA341&lpg...

That's what i said :) Just better.

Ross is the Clan name.
O'Beolan is the family name of the Earls of Ross who originate from Ireland.

I think for default suffix should be "Earl of Ross" as using "mormaer" would be mixing two languages. I _THINK_ Scots would be "Mormaer ay Ros" but don't quote me on that.

Eugene, i think Clann Aidrea is an alternate name rather than a translation of Clan Ross.

Alex,

Correct. Erica was looking for the O'Beolan surname meaning.

Warning ! Data dump to pick through!

Here's from http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY%20LATER.htm#_To...

B.      EARLS of ROSS (FERQUHARD MacTAGGART)
 
 
FERQUHARD MacTaggart, son of --- (-Tain Jan 1251, bur Fearn Abbey).  The Chronicle of Melrose records that "Machentagar" defeated the rebellion of Donald MacWilliam (grandson of Duncan II King of Scotland) 15 Jun 1215 and was knighted in reward[16].  He was created Earl of Ross.  "Ferkar comes de Ross" granted "terre in Ros…Clon" to "Waltero de Moravia filio quondam Hugonis de Moravia" by undated charter[17], according to Balfour Paul "dated probably after June 1226"[18].  He founded the abbey of Fearn before 1230.  He defeated a rebellion in Galloway in 1235.  John of Fordun’s Scotichronicon (Continuator) records that "comes Rossensis Machentagard" defeated a rebellion in Galloway in 1235[19].  "…Domini P comitis de Ros…domini Merlessani filii Comitis…" witnessed the charter dated 1234 which records an agreement between the bishop of Moray and "Walterum Cumyn comitem de Mynynteth" concerning "terra de Kyncardyn"[20]. 
m ---.  The name of Ferquhard’s wife is not known. 

1.         WILLIAM de Ross (-Earl's Allan May 1274).  "…W. filio F. comitis de Ros" witnessed the charter dated 12 Sep 1232 which records an agreement between the bishop of Moray and "Gylbertum filium Gylberti quondam comitis de Stratheren" concerning "dimidiam dauacha de Kyncarny"[21].  He succeeded his father in 1251 as Earl of Ross.  He was one of the Scottish magnates who made an alliance with Llewellyn Prince of Wales against England in 1258.  He led an invasion of the Isles in 1262 and is said to have had a grant of the islands of Lewis and Skye from Alexander III King of Scotland[22].  m JEAN Comyn, daughter of WILLIAM Comyn Earl of Buchan & his first wife Sarah FitzHugh.  The primary source which confirms her parentage and marriage has not yet been identified.   William & his wife had one child: 
a)         WILLIAM de Ross (-Delny 28 Jan 1323).  He succeeded his father in 1274 as Earl of Ross.  He swore fealty to Edward I King of England in 1292 but took part in the Scottish raids on England in 1296, laying siege to Carlisle and burning Hexham priory.  John of Fordun’s Scotichronicon (Continuator) names "Willelmo comite de Ros" among those captured by the English at the battle of Dunbar 27 Apr 1296[23].  A charter dated 6 Nov 1297 ordered the Sheriffs of London to pay "…William earl of Ros…knights, Scottish prisoners in the Tower" for their sustenance[24].  He was returned to Scotland in 1303.  m EUPHEME, daughter of --- (-after Jul 1297).  A charter dated 3 Sep 1296 records petitions to King Edward I by women whose estates had been seized in Scotland, including an order of restoration of property to "la contesse de Ros"[25].  "Eufemia comitissa de Ros" asked King Edward I for credence for "domino Andreæ de Rathe militi et Bernardi de Monte Alto clerico meo" by charter dated Jul 1297[26].  William & his wife had three children: 

i)          HUGH de Ross (-killed in battle Halidon Hill 19 Jul 1333, bur Fearn).  A charter dated 28 Aug 1297 records that "Willelmus comes de Ros" was in prison in the Tower of London and granted safe conduct to "Hugone filio suo" to visit him[27].  He succeeded his father in 1323 as Earl of Ross. 

m firstly MAUD Bruce, daughter of ROBERT de Brus Earl of Carrick & his first wife Margaret Ctss of Carrick (-after Sep 1323, bur Fearn).  John of Fordun’s Scotichronicon (Continuator) records that "Robertum comitem de Carric…alia filia" married "Hugoni comiti de Ross"[33]. 

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So ... We need Latin names.

Warning! More data dump!

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearchar,_Earl_of_Ross

However, despite "Ross" being a word describing the land the Earls managed (hence the Earl of Ross), Sir Robert Gordon (Earldom of Sutherland, P.36) states the Earls of Ross were first of the surname Beolan, and then were Leslies…) and continues on page 46 they are called by the surname (O’Beolan, O’Beollain, Beolan) through 1333 when "Hugh Beolan, Earl of Ross" is recorded as one of the slain at the battle of Halidon Hill. The Beolan (O’Beolan) surname remains as the surname of the Earls of Ross from Uilleam O’Beolan (Beolan) I, Earl of Ross until the death of Uilleam O’Beolan (Beolan) III, Earl of Ross in 1372 when his daughter, Euphemia I, Countess of Ross married to Sir Walter Leslie. Ross became the surname of the Earls of Ross much later in the history of the Earldom (much like the name "Windsor" is also used as the 20th century surname for the Royal Family).

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Is, then, O'Bealon the surname, de Ross the toponym, and mac Uilleam the patronym?

"de Ross" is a title reflecting that he is the embodiment of Clan Ross rather than a name. Only the earls would have a sufix involving "Ross" in whatever spelling, other family members would go by O'Beolan.

"mac Uilleam" is definitely a patronym based on his father's name being William [sp], how relevant a patronym is in this era/locale I cannot tell you.

Is anyone able to open Robert I the Bruce, King of Scots i keep getting a time out error.

Not opening for me.

@Alex I have over a dozen profiles that I can't open up and keep getting timed out .

I have opened up a report with Geni and they combined all of them and said they would have their engineers look into it. It's happening all over the place now.

If I click on a link to him, (such as what Alex added in his post) that does not open. It I enter his name in the search, his name appears and I can click on the name and the profile opens.

Nope, they pop up on search but STILL time out when you try to go to their profile. Like I said I have dozens of profiles that are doing the same thing. Must be a glitch in the Matrix, LOL.

I think it's an issue with the match que. The more matches, the more the profiles collapse from the weight of being in so many trees.

Re the time outs: I go into another profile where the subject will be listed as a relative, i.e. a spouse, sibling, etc. & find I can get into a profile that way. For instance, Robert the Bruce won't open, so I opened Hugh O'Beolan, clicked on his 2nd wife, Margaret Bruce, & clicked on her father, Robert the Bruce & the profile came up.

Clever! Thank you, Linda. And thank you, Arthur, for raising the case for a tech fix.

Linda, sorry to be the bearer of bad news but Hugh O'Beolan is not the son-in-law of Robert THE Bruce. He is the son-in-law of Robert de Bruce, same time period but different person. Presumably they are related (cousins of some sort).

"The Bruce" is still timing out, I was trying to reach that Robert's profile to see what system was used in the name fields.

http://www.geni.com/projects/Medieval-Scotland/12063 does not help as far as naming conventions.

http://www.geni.com/projects/Scottish-Family-Naming-Conventions/28039 is no help for what we want

http://www.geni.com/projects/The-de-Ros-family-from-Scottish-Kings-... might be relevant but as far as naming conventions just links to the Geni wiki

http://wiki.geni.com/index.php/Naming_Conventions has a more specific section http://wiki.geni.com/index.php/Naming_Conventions#Scottish_Kings_Na...:

http://www.geni.com/projects/Ross-Clan/16196 is obviously relevant but does not offer guidance on naming

http://www.geni.com/projects/Scottish-Clans-Main-Page/16110 has several links for naming but they are not Geni specific

http://medievalscotland.org/scotnames/scotnames101.shtml is very comprehensive but i'm not sure what to make of it for our purpose

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/resources/scotsgaelic.html and http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=551&amp... are both interesting but not specific enough for what we are trying to define.

What is it you're trying to figure out, Alex? I might know the answer.