Eleanor Locke (Neville) - Wrong death date, wrong parents?

Hello Carole,
This is my Genealogy tree, but it was actually my Mother Nancy Wilbanks Robitaille that did all the research and ALL THE WORK on Geni.com. She has past away this last March 2015 and I have not worked on the Genealogy. Sorry I can not verify or confirm any information.
Thank you,
Eugenie Robitaille

I tried to work my way back into Locke to find some good sources, and I'm sorry to report I have found more work to do instead.

John Locke's mother, Joan Mortimer, may not have existed. Or at least, she was not the daughter of Edmund de Mortimer and Phillipa, 5th Countess of Ulster. See sources on her father's profile.

Lady Joan Mortimer

Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March

John Locke's grandmother, Alice FitzAlan, is likewise problematic. Alice FitzAlan, daughter of Edmund the 9th Earl of Arundel, did not marry anyone named Locke. She married John de Bohun.

Alice Fitzalan, of Arundel

Is there a way to make a project of problematic areas in the tree?

Still trying to locate the real Locke line.

OK I found this, but it starts with John 1400 and doesn't name his wife. Says he is probably descended from a Surry Co. family:

http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~legends/locke.html

I found a John Locke and wife Jane of Merton Place in Surrey, but they were both living in 1499, when they came into possession of Merton Place. Maybe the death date of 1492 is off, or these are relatives of his?

https://books.google.com/books?id=zxdYAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA351&lpg...

There is a Wikipedia page for his grandson Sir William Lok:

"William Lok was the second son of Thomas Lok, a London mercer, and the grandson of John Lok, also a mercer, who was Sheriff of London in 1461. His mother was Joan Wilcock (d.1512), only daughter of one 'Mr Wilcock' of Rotherham, Yorkshire."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lok

Doesn't mention the wife or ancestry of John Locke/Lok. Which makes me think the connections to Neville, Mortimer, and Arundel are spurious.

Note: alternate spellings

Locke Lock Lok Lokke Loke

http://archive.org/stream/calendarpatentr14offigoog/calendarpatentr...

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2009-01/...

His will was written 19 Jul 1459; proved 19 Jul 1463.

Still looking for the wife.

I think this guy was friends with some of my folks who were also auditors. :)

His wife appears to have been named Elizabeth. Here she is in Chancery Proceedings of 1478:

Nov. 5 - Westminster:
Thomas Luyt touching a debt of 10 l.., and to answer pleas that he render 10 l. to Elizabeth late the wife of John Lok, citizen and mercer of London, and John Alburgh, citizen and mercer of London, executors of the will of the said John Lok.

Calendar of the Patent Rolls Preserved in the Public Record Office ..., Volume 3

https://books.google.com/books?id=AVVJAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA85&lpg=...

She appears to have remarried to a man named York, based on records of a property she inherited from her husband:

"From the Brothers the property passed, in 1452, to John Lok, an alderman of London and a wealthy mercer.

...In 1478 his widow, then Elizabeth York, surrendered the messuage to John Sutton..."

Fulham Old and New: Being an Exhaustive History of the Ancient ..., Volume 2
By Charles James Fèret

https://books.google.com/books?id=Dv7lAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA168&lpg...

So it appears we have a wife Elizabeth ____ who later married _____ York, and no parents, etc. for John Locke or Lok.

John Locke's father William Locke is also connected as husband to a Eleanor Neville Eleanor Neville

Well it looks like Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March has two many children. I have seen 4 legitimate children listed, 2 sons & 2 daus., with possibly a illegitimate son John.
Edmund currently has 9 children.

I would like the make a new profile for Jane, wife of John Locke, Sheriff of London, and move the two known children John & Thomas over. Then disconnect Eleanor Neville, she doesn't belong in this mercantile family.

Pretty sure Jane married a different, younger John Locke (since they have records after the death of this John), and the wife of the Mercer/Sheriff/Alderman John Lok/Locke was Elizabeth ___ who later married a York. I'll try to find more on the other couple (John and Jane of Merton Place, Surrey), to help sort them apart.

There are also profiles for John Locke's father, grandfather, etc. to deal with. William Locke who married Joan Mortimer, Robert Locke who married Alice Fitzalan, these people don't appear to exist. They have ancestors who likewise may not exist.

Should this sort of clean-up job be a project?

Maybe with a front page that's nice chart to follow?

Alice Fitzalan, of Arundel has the wrong death date, she died c 1326 and her husband John Bohun remarried. I will be editing the death date. The death date for her on John Bohun's Wiki page is wrong, on her father's Wiki page her death agrees with other references.

I will be removing her as mother of Lord William Locke she was dead when he was born, & removing as wife of Sir Robert Locke . He may have married a Alice FitzAlan but not this one.

Just in case Robert Locke's wife is found she may have had the death date of 24/1/1375 Lenn, Wiltshire, England which I am removing from Alice Fitzalan, of Arundel.

I spent a lot of time trying to work out the two Alice FitzAlan's on my tree, finally gave up...haven't had much time lately, but will try again soon...Ancestry.com has a lot of mistakes apparently, I don't know how I'll ever get it together...

I see where users are getting the information that Eleanor (Neville) Percy was married to John Locke and had children John Locke II, Thomas Locke.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_Percy,_Countess_of_Northumber...
It is not listed in the main body of the bio but in the panel on the right side.

Does any one have the ability to correct this?

Whoa! I did it!

Lady Joan Mortimer

I have not been able to find a reference for this Joan Mortimer with these dates. Her about section has information from http://www.our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p462.h... about another Joan Mortimer with different dates, dau. of Roger & Joan de Geneville.

What did you do? Erica Howton

I set up a login on Wikipedia, gave a reason, and edited out John Locke as a spouse on the right hand panel of the article. I'm proud of myself. Can I do it some more?

A word of warning -- you might now have to watch the article. Those Wikipedia folks love to revert changes. They get very territorial -- unlike Geni ;)

I agree to disagree on that comment about arugmentive terrorital behavior justin.. Lol . And i also disagree to agree that wikipedia can be a good source...
but anyway good work erica.

At the time of my Post when I asked you what you did, it still had the Locke's and looked the same.
Just looked and the Locke's are still there. I guess you can do it some more on the same article, and some more ... etc. There are children John Locke II & Thomas Locke listed at the end of her Issue in the panel.
Sorry Erica Howton I wonder if it will ever be changed?

Erica, I just looked myself. It was changed back by Donner60, who thought you were just practicing. You'll need to start a discussion ("Talk") in order to get the change. Or, you could tag the Lockes with "citation needed", and add your source. Right now the article is based on thepeerage.com. They definitely need some help.

Based on thepeerage.com? Maybe the main body of the article on Wikipedia, there is nothing in http://www.thepeerage.com/p10743.htm#i107425 about her being married to John Locke or having children by the surname Locke.

I don't like saying it, but maybe they are using what was on Geni.com? That is a downfall, that persons copy the data here thinking it is correct, then other persons use that, such as what is listed as some of the Smart Matches for profiles on MyHeritage & FamilySearch.

Could be. I was thinking that citing only thepeerage.com but reinstating info to the article that isn't there suggests Donner60 has his / her own prejudices, maybe a Locke descent ;)

Is the Geni profile in good enough shape to point to? We should do that first.

I'm interested in the outcome of this Eleanor Percy edit war.

I've seen other Wikipedia bio pages with erroneous genealogy information, typically unverified or impossible children. Sir Francis Bryan's page shows three such children with Joan Fitzgerald, Duchess of Ormonde. I put a note on the "talk" page, but no action has been taken to remove them.

It makes it harder to fight bogus lines here when folks like to use Wikipedia as a source. People don't always pay attention to whether the "facts" have footnotes to back them up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bryan

I've attempted to delete the children with this edit note: Francis & Joan had no children in their 18 month marriage. Joan's will lists no Bryan children--neither do biographies, visitations, or histories. NOTE: Wikipedia policy is to "remove contentious material that is unsourced or poorly sourced."

Here is the policy on unsourced material:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_perso...

We'll see how it goes, eh?

One of the biggest problems with Wikipedia is that Wikipedia articles must not contain original research.

In a nutshell: Wikipedia does not publish original thought: all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves.

They are forced to use a lot of unreliable published sources.

This is where Geni can really shine. Original research using original & contempoary documents & sources. Not something someone has dreamed up 200-300 years later.

There's a thought -- you could challenge the Locke information as being "original research" ;)

Thanks for tracking my first Wiki edit. I think it's a helpful Wikipedia admin watching out for newbie. So I posted more clearly on his talk page, and pointed out the John Locke was not included on the Wiki page's own cited source. :)

I didn't feel like the Geni profile for the Countess is "special" enough to quote from. It's fine, but it's the same as Wiki and based on the same secondary sources.

BUT with the Locke (sheriff in 1561) project -- "that" we can develop to something to use in Wikipedia. Plus it's far more interesting, original ... And actual descent, including me, sort of.