Jarvis Greene - Parent Problem

I seriously doubt that Jarvis Green's body was exhumed from the battle field at Blue Lick. That battle was about 20 miles south of the fort and all men were stripped of most of their belongings before they were buried. The burials were done very quickly since there was still danger. It would have been very difficult to identify who was who. Maybe they just took some bones they had dug up.
Jarvis had moved to there home in The Kentucky Territory some time not long before the battle. This area eventually became Green county, Ky and Sarah and the children remained there until the late 1790's. Their home was about 40 miles south of Blue Lick Creek. Jarvis had joined the militia from that area and that group joined up with the militia who were matching toward the fort.(Fort Brian?) It looks like Sarah's brother was also killed that day, though I don't know enough about that family to know for sure. Sarah was given Jarvis's rifle and something else though I don't remember what, a few weeks after the battle. Sarah does seem to have gone with their daughter to Illinois, though John went to White Co, Tn. He fought in the war if 1812 and became a minister. Two of Thomas Green's sons moved there and likely knew their uncle John. Though I have not found any proof that that Thomas was Jarvis's son, it seems very likely that he was. My grandmother had told me many times that Thomas's father had been killed in the Revolution and he had been raised by a man named Thomas Turley. Since Thomas Turley was the guardian of his uncle Simeon's children, they have to be related. Jarvis was the only one of George Green's sons who would have been old enough to have had a son born in 1770 and George and Mary were both dead by then. George Green most likely was buried in Halifax County since Jarvis and Sarah had not even met at that time. There are postings from way back that say that Jarvis was married in 1772 but whoever that wife was had died young and was gone for about a year before he married Sarah. Thomas gave his age on the census indicating 1770 as his birth year but the may not have actually known what his birthday was since he did not even know his dad. This evidence seems to bear out. I have lots of documentation proving who Jarvis's father was.

The Justice Y-DNA project has found three family groups and a handful of isolates.

1. (Probable) descendants of Johann Gustafsson (c1618 Sweden - 1682 Philadelphia PA), descendants found in NC/GA/AL, possible name mutation from "Gustafsson" to "Justice".

2. Descendants/collaterals of William Justice m. Mary Frame - one "direct" line, several possible collaterals.

3. Descendants of John Justice of Harpin Creek - four direct lines, three whose connection is likely but unproven (they are very close matches).

Differences between line 2 and line 3 start in the first 12 markers - 3 out of 12 mismatches. Right there that's a strong indication that there is NOT a direct descent. And the differences keep piling up until it's a flat "No way, not within the last ~1000 years".

This is *exactly what you would expect* if John Justice of Harpin Creek was John Justice of Plymouth County, MA and not John Justice of Charles City, VA.

I just recently found a little on the Atkinsons of Pittsylvania and did see a marriage of a Mary Atkinson.. This apparently was a very big family. I did not see anything that proved who each of these people were. In Pittsylvania there were at least five Mary Justices. Since we know that Mary Justice Green died before 1771, the one who married a Thomas Potter could not have been her. Likely that Mary Justice was a niece. Most of her brothers had daughters named Mary; and their sons had daughters named Mary. Likely the same thing was true for the Mary Atkinson who was born in 1735. Most young girls of that period were married by age 15 or 16 and had their first child by the time they were 16 or 17. If you look at all of the censuses for 1850 on, where they actually name the people and children and their ages, you can tell the ages and most all of the mothers were under 20 when they had their first child. That's why they had such large families.
I know what you mean about believing what you see on line, in Familysearch or other places. Like I say, you just can't believe anything unless it is documented and even then sometimes it is wrong because so many men named their sons after all of their brothers. And since the oldest son often had children who were the same age as his youngest brother, it's really hard to sort them all out. Many times books are written by a descendant who went by what he or she was told and they often get it wrong. Also, even headstones are sometimes wrong because they may have been added many years after the person died and the person who added it didn't really know the facts.
I don't know what you mean by two places at one time. Are you talking about the John Justice who lived in Augusta Co? I've found no proof at all he was related to the Charles City Justices. I'll do some checking though. Have you found any actual proof of the Augusta Justices?

Maven, from what I found so far the John Justice who lived in Augusta was the son of Justinian. He would have been the first cousin to John Justice of Pittsylvania Co,
What I found on Mary Wade Justice is that I was right in that her husband, John Justice Sr, inherited Kittawan Plantation. When he died, John Jr moved in and took care of her until she died in 1743 (or possibly had a home on the same land near her). This article says that John Jr sold the property in 1756 which would have been not too long before he passed away.
Mary Atkinson would have to have been born no later than 1710 in order to have started having children in the late 1720"s. It's likely they were married in Charles City County and had all of their children there. He appears to have been born around 1696 so would have been around 60 when he died. Likely he was ill and decided to go ahead and sell the plantation in Charles City County before he died. It is not mentioned in the will that he wrote just a few days before he died. The John from Augusta died in 1754 so could not have sold the land in 1756. Since John had clear title to it, there cold have been no contesting of the sale. Two different people.

Will have to re-research John Justice of Augusta, or maybe page Erica Howton, since she did most of the work on him. There's no paper trail *from* him, and a very sketchy one *to* him. And the part of "Augusta County" he did land deals in is now known as Highland County - it's way off the beaten track *even* from the Shenandoah Valley.

He *could* have been John Justice II of Charles County, but *could not* have been John Justice of Harpin Creek - and he could have been somebody unconnected to either bunch.

Y-DNA evidence (times four) says John Justice of Harpin Creek was *NOT* a Charles City Justice - and with that much close agreement in that many lines, it's not likely there were any Non-Parental Events.

Three kits have William Justice of Kittawon as oldest common ancestor, all of them are through his son Justinian, they all agree closely with each other, and they differ strongly from the kits tracing back to John Justice of Harpin Creek. (Paper trail suggests the donors were a father and two of his sons - a wider spread would be more conclusive.)

There are also some people who *thought* they were descended from John and/or William, but the Y-DNA evidence says they aren't. And there are some tests that are "inconclusive" because only 12 markers were tested. (37 is the recommended minimum these days.)

Unless Justinian had *two* sons named John (which is not an unknown phenomenon), John Justice of Augusta wasn't his son either. The paper trail goes like this:

*William Justice b. 1625 d. 1664 m. Mary Frame
*Justinian Justice m. Mary Cannon
*John Justiss b. 1698 m. Joanna Cannon
*John Justiss m. Sarah Cook
Samuel Justiss b. 1785 Halifax Co. NC [note: NC, NOT VA] m. Hannah Cartwright
Joseph Cannon Justiss m. Martha Mankin
William Justiss b. ? Wilson Co. TN d. 12 Jul 1893 Chattanooga, TN m. Martha Preston
Srygley Claud Justiss b. 30 Jul 1890 Cannon Co. TN d. 14 May 1972 Gainesville, FL m. Thula Dodson
Robert Gray Justiss b. 01 Oct 1917 White Co. TN d. 13 Apr 1993 Jacksonville, FL m. Elzie Hendley
(Kit contributor 469923)
(Kit contributors N51134 and N88064)

You are really reaching now, trying to prop up a hypothesis that is becoming increasingly unsustainable. Are there any records of this "Mary Atkinson" (Atkins, Adkins) born before 1710" in Charles City County? Are there any records of a marriage around 1725-1730 between a Mary Adkins/Atkins(on) and John Justice - or *anybody*? Are there any records of any children with those names born in Charles City County - to *any* couple?

I'm quoting your own words: "[I]f you don't have some sort of legal documentation, such as a deed, will, court record, census, etc. there is no proof of who a person was". All you have, by your own admission, is a land transaction in 1747 from William Atkinson (alias Atkins, Adkins in other documents) to John Justice, IN the Harpin Creek area, *naming no other names*.

The DAR would laugh that right out the door.

William Atkinson (alias Atkins, Adkins) has Multiple Choice parents, Multiple Choice birthplaces, and a Multiple Choice path from wherever (it seems to lead through Henrico County and Goochland County) to Pigg River/Harpin Creek. http://hagen.familyfiles.info/870.htm There is no record of any sister by *any* name. There is a record of a William Adkins (Adekyn or Adkinson) marrying one Elizabeth Parker, on January 17, 1716, in the Saint James Episcopal Church in Henrico County, Virginia. (*Her* parentage is known: she was the daughter of Richard and Mitha Parker.) There are records of children born to this couple, and *Mary was the absolute youngest, born circa 1735*. There are no records of her marrying *anyone*. There was gossip that she "kept company with" tax collector Jacob Harley (who claimed to be "son of the Earl of Oxford") and raised six or seven children, presumably his.

You apparently have not listened to anything I have said. I told you that I had just found that on line and implied that I had no proof except the docs I had seen. I have seen the deeds for the sale of Kittawan plantation, and have so much proof that I have collected for many years that confirm who the Justice family members were from Charles City County. Though there is no proof of who the John Justice from Pittsylvania is, the clues seem most likely to add up to John from Charles city, not from Massachusetts. If you can show me proof that the family from Mass is the same person, I will not believe it. You don't want to know the truth because you have already made up your mind and no one can change it. You are the one who apparently accepted info from posting and took it for truth. I may have given some dates, etc. that were a little off because I have data on several hundred ancestors from over 30 years and can't be expected to quote it all from memory. But I got it pretty damn close. A lot of what you have quoted is not correct and I could prove it, but you aren't worth my time. You are rude and insulting...definitely not from my generation...or just born that way.

" If you can show me proof that the family from Mass is the same person, I will not believe it."

End of discussion, nothing further to be said.

The two books about Charles City are not something that someone wrote. They are direct quotes from court cases from Charles City County starting in the mid-1600's and their is nothing else in there. They are just chocked full of cases of the Justice family and make it clear who was married to whom and who was whose son, etc.
DNA tests are only as reliable as who has taken them and how many, and if the people who took them actually know who their ancestors were. I have seen the DNA results spoken of and they really don't prove anything. DNA testing is a very tricky thing. I studied all about the Battle of Blue Licks including many actual reports from the various officers who were there. What I tell you is documented. I'm sure that Sarah's daughters family thought they knew what they were talking about when they placed the plague but they were just wrong. My husband is a history buff and knows so much about the details of wars that most people do not know. Burying soldiers just after a battle was common place and is documented in the case of Blue Licks. Since the soldiers bodies were mostly stripped before burial, with other soldiers taking their shoes and anything they thought they needed, it was impossible to identify who was who and there were no markers. If someone had gone to exhume a body, they would not have been able to tell which bones were their ancestors. Un-embalmed bodies deteriorated very quickly. I already told you that I did not know much about Justinian Justice except that he did not move west. I don't know for sure the Augusta John was but he sure wasn't the son of John Justice Sr and that was the point I was trying to make. I hold to he rules of the DAR. Knowing what information is accurate and documented is imperative.

Documenting the Charles City Justices while they were *in* Charles City is worthwhile. But Charles City documents don't help anywhere *but* Charles City. This is *the exact same "problem"* that you raised about Plymouth County, MA.

If you reject Y-DNA evidence altogether because it doesn't match *your* paper trail, you're making a major mistake. It *can* show whether two descendants belong to the same family group or not, and at this point you would need to argue for a Non-Parental Event in the William Justice descent to explain why the tests don't match.

Show me:
* Primary documentation for existence of a Mary Atkinson *in* Charles City County prior to ~1745.
* Primary documentation for a marriage of this Mary Atkinson to any member of the Justice family, *in* Charles City County.
* Primary documentation for any children born to any such marriage, *in* Charles City County.

Say-so won't cut it, trees won't cut it, *only* primary documents (marriage records, birth/baptism records, legal documents, etc.) will do.

Discussion of Jarvis Greene's burial and alleged removal is irrelevant.
Discussion of *any other issue* is irrelevant.
I'm sorry to have to take such a hard line, but when you demand documentation and then REJECT it - and *don't* provide any documentation of *your* position - you are not being consistent with your own stated principles.

I have asked for this discussion to be closed because it has become pointless - you have stated flat out that no amount of evidence, not even primary documentary proof, would persuade you that John Justice of Harpin Creek was anyone but who *you* claimed he was . Therefore there is nothing further to discuss.

Just found the will of William Justice, brother of Mary and Simeon. He apparently still lived in Pittsylvania in 1800 and documented his first will. He was named the new guardian of Simeon's youngest sons four years after Thomas Turley, their first guardian, had died in 1796. The boys had just been convicted of stealing pigs and apparently thought they still needed supervision, even though they were already of age. No doubt that was a stipulation for not putting them in jail.
One of the witness for both the first will, written in Pitts and the second one codisiled in Floyd Co, Ky as well was.....Ezira ATKINSON. Definitely not concrete proof of anything but a significant clue that proves a close connection between the two families. Possibly Ezira was a nephew.

No luck shaking "Ezra Atkinson" out of the Adkins/Atkins/Atkinson family tree (yet). As you point out, this isn't proof of anything but proximity, since neighbors who were *not* relatives could also be witnesses, and neighbors could and sometimes did pack up and move on together.

If you *don't* have primary documentation for a Mary Atkinson in Charles City County, please say so.

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=gwenb...

Check out this link and notice the Atkins (Atkinsons) who lived in Goochland and moved to Harping Creek in what was at the time still part of Lunenburg County. I have other ancestor from Goochland (Farrar's Island) who had moved there from Jamestown, about 40 miles to the east. where Kittiwan was located. No doubt John Justice could have known this family. It is no proof but does connect these Atkinson's to the ones in Pittsylvania and John could have married one of them.
I don't know who you are but no doubt Maven is a tag and not your true identity. I'm not sure if you are a guy or a girl. But you do seem to have some kind of issue. You seem to just be angry about everything. In all of my years of research I've never run across anyone quite like you. I respond to other people who are doing research about someone I know to try and help them and they usually seem very happy to learn new things. To bad you don't really want to learn anything. You just like to argue.

Looked back at the William Justice will and the name was Elija Atkinson, not Ezira.. I intend to check him out.

This morning I did a good bit of research. I did find a Pittsylvania tithible list that names Ezra as Israel.. If he had been born in Massachusetts, he would have been born after the Justice family had left the church so there is no way to know if he was their son or not. The will shows William, John, Simeon Thoma,s Mary, Alice and Ezra. The church shows Mary, John, Simeon, Thomas, Elce and Elizabeth. The only common names are Mary, John, Simeon and Thomas. These were all common names so that isn't concrete evidence of the two families being the same. I checked my Ancestry DNA cousins and did not find any Moore cousins, not from Mass or from Halifax Co. Mary of Mass is supposedly from Ireland and came to America as a young girl. She apparently did not marry for about 10 years. So she might not show as a cousin if she came by herself. I do have about two dozen cousins who were descended from John though.
I appears that one of the Justice boys moved to Kanawah, WV with the Turleys and others from Pittsylvania. I can't tell for sure which one it was since the info is from a later date. I was in a legit doc though.
The man who was the executor for John Turley's will was a man named Pleasant Fears. He also signed surety for Thomas Green. He married a Childress aa did some of the Turley's. John Turley was Elizabeth Turley Justice's brother and Thomas' of course. These families are the people in that doc. I think it was dated 1797.
I found a good bit of deeds, etc as well from Halifax Cp, Va. Looks like the Atkinsons from Goochland and Charles City did not show up until 1741. I can't remember the name of the first one though. It wasn't William though. Maybe it was his father. Seems like the name was Henry. I suppose it could have been a brother. I haven't been able to find a connection for a Mary Atkinson who would have been born around the turn of the century but no reason to believe there wasn't one. I do know there were sister who were from Isle of Wight who would have been around that age. IoW was adjacent to Charles City Co at that time.

Maven, I am not reading your comments. I just want to add what I found yesterday in my research. It looks like the Atkinson family had been in what is now Pittsylvania since the turn of the 18th century. I found a deed that names William Atkinson as someone who had received a land patent around 1800 for land on the Pigg River. In later records he is referred to as "the elder" indicating that he had a son who had the same name. This family remained in that area for most of the 18th century. I am not sure what their connection to the Atkinson's of Goochland Co is but likely did have one. The Goochland family with the same name had also been there since the late 1600's, per the records.
I was an engineer before I retired. It was my job to deal with "what If" and "therefore". I then had to find evident to substantiate the theory in order to come to a conclusion. This is the way I approach genealogy study. You have to follow families movement and then eliminate all who could not have been an ancestor and then document all that you can about the people who are left. If I can find anything that would eliminate one of the two Justice families, than I can dismiss the other. So far I have not found that but will keep trying.
I did find that Mary (Moore) of Massachusetts did come to America with her family. She was born around 1700 so would have been in her late 20's when she married John Justice. If she had any male siblings who married and had sons, any Moore from that line would have shown up as a cousin from my DNA I have not done any research on that family, though. If no one from that line has done a DNA test, a connection would not show up either, so I cannot eliminate the possibility that the Mary Moore from Mass was the same one who was married to John Justice from Pitts. Therefore I need to do some more tracking of these two families. It's out there somewhere and I will find it.
Something notable is that many men from that era received grant patents from the King of England for some favor he had done for them but never lived on that land because they already had land somewhere else. It's possible that this William lived in Goochland for some time and then decided to move to the land he had received. A very common thing from what I have found over the years. Sometimes they sold it years later and had never even seen it. Sometimes someone simply purchased land for investment and never intended to live on it, as did John Justice from Pittsylvania who bought and sold land in Halifax county for years, though he lived in Pitts. His son, Thomas, did the same.

....I meant the patent was received around 1700, not 1800. Someone purchased land in 1702 and noted that it was adjacent to the patent of William Atkinson on the Pigg River.

Ran across some old emails that I had sent to my cousin back in 2015. In them I found some data from someone who claimed that he had gotten it from microfilm at the LDS library. He shows a birth for William Justice for 1737 in Charles City County and says he was able to track the family all the way to Peyton Justice
Problem with DNA testing for genealogy research is that so many people fill out the ancestor form giving data that they had seen on the web for years thinking it was correct. I was researching the DNA for my John Barnett and found that someone had shown the wrong info for him. I have proven without a doubt that theirs was not the same
Person through about
30 different docs. Now there are
People out there who think they were descended from King Henry but were not. That's the reason I tend to dismiss anything about DNA that
I see on line.

Just found my Charles City County books. In the book entitled "court orders 1737-1751, on page 101, September Court 1739 reads "John Justis's deed to George Baskervyle recorded. Mary Wade Mother of John, and Mary, wife of John, relinquished their dower rights in said land".
Some people interpreted that as saying that John's mother had remarried after John Sr had died, but this was before he died, and this had to be her maiden name. Also, if she had actually remarried after he died, she would not have had to sign the deed because she would have given them up with her new marriage. So John's mother was Mary Wade Justice.

Found an article that was posted in a Cincinnati newspaper in 1862 about Peyton Justice, son of William Justice. It says that he had
Been arrested for stealing everything out of someone's home. He was taken into the woods and shot in the back of the head. It happened in pike county, Ky. There is a pencil sketch of him when he was a
Good bit younger

I will run this information by Erica. Since you're not reading my messages, this discussion is even more pointless than ever.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Peyton+Justice+pittsylvania&cli...

Having children with the same or similar names simply would not be accepted as proof by any professional genealogy researchers. I find it very hard to accept that William Atkinson would deed without cost valuable land to someone that he barely knew, especially this mean nasty couple. I sure hope I am not related to them. I'm quitting this feudal search.

Why do some of these Justice Families turn out to be Y-DNA= GIBSONS ?
Thanks,
Mr. David Gibson

Sorry you came in on the tail end of a squabble with yet another pigheaded person who WILL NOT accept DNA evidence when it disproves their pet theories.

About the only thing that came of that was a high probability that Jarvis Green(e) and sibs were the children of George Green and Mary Justice of Harpin Creek.

As to why Y-DNA from different surnames might match, there are any number of reasons. Adoption, formal or otherwise; husband taking wife's name because she was more important (this still happens occasionally); name change as condition of an inheritance (ditto); "don't like my last name, I wanna change it"; Most Recent Common Ancestor back before surnames stabilized; "the milkman"; etc. etc. etc.

My direct Gibson's are in this area and I believe that the John Justice that is in Question is in fact a Gibson, my question was if either of you had come across any Gibson's living with this family or the other Justice Families?
On the Y- 67 DNA test there's three Justice's listed on the Gibson Surname chart that are only 2 markers off at 67 markers.

My direct Gibson's are in this area and I believe that the John Justice that is in Question is in fact a Gibson, my question was if either of you had come across any Gibson's living with this family or the other Justice Families?
On the Y- 67 DNA test there's three Justice's listed on the Gibson Surname chart that are only 2 markers off at 67 markers.

Yep, that certainly looks like John Justice of Mirey Creek (times three). Since we have no idea who his parents were, it's anybody's guess why he fits in among this lot of Melungeon-connected Gibsons. (It's a fairly loose grouping, suggesting that the common ancestor, whoever he may have been, was from *quite* a long time ago - probably measured in centuries at least.)

No Gibsons in the Mirey Creek area, at least none who married into the family. But the Justices scattered across North Carolina and eastern Tennessee on the way to Floyd County, Kentucky, and could have picked up a Melungeon connection somewhere around then.

On March 7, 1624 it was reported to the General Court that Edward Gibson or Giften had administered physic to the sick at Falling Creek. He also had treated the sick at Weyanoke. [1] Thus, he probably was a surgeon or an apothecary.
WILLIAM FARRAR, sonne & heire to William Farrar, late of Henrico, deed., 2000 acs. Henrico Co., 11 June 1637,
Jon. Frame (or France) [Frame]
Jon. Gibson,
Howell Edmonds,? Edmund Howell? Godson of Gibson, son of Thomas?
Henry Howell
"To all whom these presents shall come, I, Sir John Harvey, Knight Governor Esq. now know yee, that I, with the consent of the Council of State do give and grant unto John Howell One Hundred and fifty acres of land by and for the transportation of three persons into the colony of Virginia, whose names are affixed. Dated January 10, 1639."
The grant was signed by John Fletcher, Thomas Gibson and Jane Price.
Captain John Frame was born in 1600. He lived in Jordan's Journey, Charles City County, Virginia, Colonial America in 1623.