SEIGNEURS de MONTGOMMERY

Harald Tveit Alvestrand

regarding William de Monte Gomerii is there any parallel between the names Ragnar and Roger?

I know that Fitzroger means "son of Roger", so is there a possibly Fitzrogerus and Ragnarsson are the same name?

I'll edit Roger de Montgomery, I, Seigneur de Montgomery's About tomorrow to remove duplication and also several links to the wikipedia page for Clan Montgomery (which ironically has includes a clear statement that there is no link between the clan and this family!).

Would be happy to have any input or feed back on these posts but otherwise just keeping them as record of my changes to this part of the tree.

Alex Moes I know of no relationship between Ragnar and Roger except that both start with an R..... that said, I would not be surprised if a Ragnar had been Latinized that way, but it would also be a (more likely) Latinization of Rollaug and similar-sounding names.

My thinking is that a lot of these FitzX and Xson have been added in later ages based on who the chronichlers thought the people descended from, so they shouldn't be trusted THAT much..

Thanks Harald. If i had to guess i'd say that profile is an orphan that needs disconnecting.

Back to Gormmeri, i found amongst a bunch of rubbish on this web page https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/crispincousins/conversations/to... the following gem-

A history of the Montgomery family is presented by "Origin and
History of the Montgomerys" by B.G. Montgomery of Sweden.

"Gomeric, Prince of Denmark, built a castle known as Mons Gomerici in
the southern part of the diocese of Lisieux. Mons means mountain so
this would mean Mountain of Gormeric. From this, the name became
Montgomery at the time of his great-grandson. Gomeric had three sons:
Bernard Danus,ancestor of the Dukes of Harcourt; Sihtric, a Viking
chief and the oldest son, our ancestor, William (Guillam), a Norman
Baron."

Origin and history of the Montgomerys by B.G. de Montgomery published 1948 can be read online here https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE1086074

page 30

" According to Dudo, Rollo had a brother with the name of Gorm. "

"Dudo", from higher up the same page is a reference to:

... Dudo de St. Quentin (De Moribus et Actis Primorum Normanniae Ducum) that Rollo was a Danish prince.
2. Dudo wrote his story some sixty years after Rollo's death at the request of Richard I, Rollo's grandson. "

Page 31

"7. According to the Germanic genealogies in the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris (Cabinet des titres, vol. 20780), the ancestor of the Montgomerys was Gommer, 'one of the princes who accompanied Duke Rollo at the conquest of Neustria in 885.' This prince must be identical with Gorm. That he was of Danish nationality is clear from the fact that his son Bernard (Christian name for Biorn) was called Danus. "

Of course even Dudo at just 60 years after the event could be fabricating a lot of the story, far more interesting for Rollo and Gorm to be grandsons of Ragnar rather than grandsons of some potato farmer.

de Montgomery produces a family tree on page 28 showing Gormeric as a son of Ingvar, quoting the Annals of Ulster.
To my eye this links Gorm / Gommer to Ivarr Gudrodson, king of Dublin.
de Montgomery seems to make the common "mistake" of confusing Ingvar/Imar/Ivarr with "Ivar the Boneless".

de Montgomery, presumably quoting Dudo, then shows Gormeric having a three sons inluding one named Willaim who he then goes on to say is the grandfather of Roger I.

This chronology does not seem to match very well, if Ivarr/Imar is born early 800s (his profile shows 820) but Roger I is born 985 then it looks like there is at least one if not two generations missing between Gormeric and Ivarr.

I propose that we delete the two profiles named Roger that currently separate Gommeri from William, so that our Tree matches our "source", and add a comment in Gommeri's About that he is possible descendant from Ivarr.

Any managers of these profiles care to comment?

Gorm / Gommer
William de Monte Gomerii
Roger de Monte Gomerii
Count Guillaume de Montgommery

Pam Wilson (on hiatus)?

The only link that i can see between Gommeri and Ragnar is that in the Irish Annals there is mention of a Sitric as the grandson of Imhar.

M915.4
"Sitric, grandson of Imhar, with his fleet, took up at Ceann-fuait, in the east of Leinster."

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T100005B/

I think that de Montgomery is interpreting Sitric in the Irish Annals as Sihtric Danus, the brother of Bernard the Dane, and also interpreting Imhar in the that passage of the Irish Annals as Ivar "the Boneless" Ragnarsson. This then makes the lineage

Ragnar

Ivar

Gommeri

Sihtric

This is how de Montgommery shows it, however, it seems to me a huge assumption to make that the two Sihtrics are the same man, regardless of whether the two Ivars are.

Of course i could be reading the wrong part of the Irish Annals but de Montgommery didn't not make a very specific reference.

Roger de Monte Gomerii has married in to the Lodbrok family but lost his ancestors, very strange.

William de Monte Gomerii circa 880 - 911, the son of Roger de Monte Gomerii 904 - 950 is listed as being born before his father

Minor details :)

Sadly the link that i was using, https://www.geni.com/discussions/147514?msg=1024623 , is no longer active.

Does anyone know of an online copy of "Origin and history of the Montgomerys" by B.G. de Montgomery published 1948

I am thinking that perhaps Gorm / Gommer should be merged with Gutum Ragnvaldson, who is currently connected as a brother to Gange-Hrólfr 'Rollo' Ragnvaldsson, with the resultant profile's name being set to Gorm with aka: Gurim, Gommer, Gommeri.

I had a quick look at the Discussion Tab on Rollo's profile but he is so popular that i did not even attempt to search see see if this topic has come up before.

As per my post above from 04/06/15 the linking of Gommer to Ingvar seems to be very circumstantial by B.G. Montgomery thru his interpretation of the Irish Annals.

I think Dudo would be a better source for parentage of Gommer than the Irish Annals, especially when he states point blank that Rollo has a brother named "Gurim".

I have yet to find an online version of Historia Normannorum.

From a brief reading of the profiles, I'd like to keep them apart.

Gorm is apparently a construct of the "let's make the Montgomery clan ancient" work, while Gutum is based on Dudo of Saint-Quentin. They're already linked through the "about me", but there appears to be no reliable source for linking the two.

Note: My memory from reading Dudo's story has Gutum killed before Rollo ever leaves the northlands - but the copy at http://www.the-orb.net/orb_done/dudo/dudindex.html has been taken down (domain offline), so a new source is needed.

Yes I've backed off a bit raising that I am guilty of the same crime. I added the link in Gutum's about and will put one in Gorms later.

Why is Rollos brother "Gutum" rather than "Gurim"? The profile is pretty much blank.

You are correct about chronology. The relevant extract is viewable on google books but I am on phone at moment so too hard to hyperlinkI

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=hE_oCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA201&...

Also for the generations immediately preceeding Roger, The Montgomery family magazine : https://archive.org/details/montgomeryfamily191517newy

Looks like you're doing some great work here.

Yes, Gutum should be Gurim according to that source - but did Dudo spell it that way? Authors regularize names in all sorts of strange ways (see the debate about Rollo vs Rolf vs Hrollaug and whether one's a valid spelling of the other).

Still, one source beats no source any day of the week.

The google books hyperlink is to a thesis(?) study of Dudo which seems to be quoting big chunks of the original Latin.
Lars explained normalisation of names to me a few years back, made my head spin!
I was just wondering where the Gutum variation comes from, it's close enough in form to Gurim to look like a possible match but different enough that it could be a totally different name... I very rarely respond to people who call me "Alan".

Thanks Sharon, wheels spinning in minor details tho!
I was supposed to be sorting out the nonsense birth dates of the main Montgomery line.

I changed the name of one of Gorm's sons today, he is no longer Roger but William.

What i have read shows Gorm as father of William, Bernard and Sithric no Rogers.

As no profiles have any sourcing or data i've just made an executive decision to change him.

Private User, are there better sources out there that yu can point us to. I got fond of these guys and would like to "know how it ends" so to speak.