Thomas ap Rice - More information

Then this:

I forgot to mention that the 1639 Will wrongly assigned by Francis Jones to of Abigail, wife of Perrot(II) is actually that of her father, Thomas Newsham of Abersannan (it can also be viewed through the National Library of Wales website). In it he says: " I doe give devise and bequeath unto my youngest daughter Abigaile Newsham the summe of foure score pounds of lawful money of England to be payd unto her by my executor hereinafter named in one Intier payment within one month after shee the sayd Abigaile shall accomplish the full age of sixteene yeares . . . "

Clearly Abigail Newsham was under the age of 16 and unmarried at the time her father's Will (written 24 Jan 1637/8) - another error in the Francis Jones article.

Now this is interesting:

"which everyone always assumes to be that of the Mercer family, is actually that of her mother's family, the Lovelaces ... might be wrong on this ..."

Is this something we can nail down?

Well that's going to clobber some of Dale's pet theories, not to mention confuse the (bleep) out of everyone!

Thomas ap Rice is my 13th grt uncles third grt nephew he is really not a direct relative of mine or the colours would be all blue

Apparently it was John ap Rice who married a Newsham daughter (Elizabeth). Since Abigail was the youngest, Elizabeth was older (I don't know by how much).

Did Abigail marry anyone, let alone Perrott Price II? And whom did Thomas Lloyd marry, and is he any relation to the Thomas Lloyd who became Deputy Governor of Pennsylvania? (There are a lot of Thomas Lloyds, though.)

All in all it looks as though Perrott ap Rice I was still kicking around Tenby town after 1640, which is a point in favor of your theory, Justin, that he got killed off in either the first or second round of battles (c. 1644, c. 1648). And if that didn't do for him, the 1650 plague certainly would have.

Looks as though the last few Perrott I children were Lettice/Alice (IMHO they were either twins or born less than a year apart - "Irish twins"), Perrott II (either just before or just after Lettice/Alice), and Priscilla, who may have been posthumous.

Got Perrott II shifted down the birth order but can't touch his dates and can't get Abigail off him (is it necessary?).

Personally I like the idea that Lettice & Alice were twins - can anybody confirm?

I think we have a problem with "James David Powell" as father to Thomas Howell's wife (and grandfather of Thomas, James, and Rebecca). He has a middle name, at a time when middle names were not used.

Was he possibly a "James ap David ap Howell" and the "ap"s have gotten lost?

Statistically there are born 1 pair of twins / 80 births.

More from the same source:

I think I've managed to eliminate two of the daughters, Alice and Lettice, from the list of children that Francis Jones attributed to Perrot (I). The National Library of Wales has the Will of “Margaret Henry als ap Rice”, widow of Brawdy, written 18 Sep 1675. Her Will names five children: son Richard Prichard, eldest daughter Ann Prichard als Clermont, second daughter Margaret Prichard, third daughter Ales ap Rice als Loveling and fourth daughter Lettice ap Rice.
The Pembrokeshire Archives online catalogue has the summary of document D-EE/40/120, dated 10 Apr 1682, as follows:
Post Marriage Settlement
1. William Loveling, of Castlemartin, Clerk, and Alice, his wife (one of the daughters of the late William ap Rice and co-heir with her sister Lettice, wife of Abell Phillips of St Thomas, Pembrokeshire)
2. Richard Prichard of Walwyn's Castle, gentleman, and Griffith Pendry of Castlemartin, gentleman
http://records.pembrokeshire.gov.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmVi...
My guess is that Margaret Henry als ap Rice was the Margaret ap Rice who was assessed at one hearth in Brawdy in 1670, assumed by Francis Jones to be Perrot's daughter but actually the wife of Perrot's brother, William, and that their two daughters, Alice and Lettice, were the minors who claimed damages from Rev. John Phillipps of Brawdy in 1660-2. If these two girls were the daughters of William ap Rice they would have been Thomas ap Rice's granddaughters. Thomas ap Rice named his son, William, and William's two children, Thomas and Alice, in his Will of 1650. There was no daughter Lettice mentioned, so presumably she was born after 1650. If Alice and Lettice were co-heirs of William ap Rice their brother Thomas probably died young.
I also doubt that the Elizabeth(?) ap Rice, wife of William Davids, was Perrot's daughter.
Other relevant Wills from the National Library of Wales website for the ap Rice and related families include:
Thomas Newsham, 1638 – father of Elizabeth & Abigail Newsham
Thomas ap Rice, 1650 – father of Perrot (I), includes inventory – Will (PCC) secondly proved in London in 1656
Alice ap Rice, 1665 – widowed 2nd wife of Thomas ap Rice, stepmother of Perrot (I)
Thomas Lloyd (of “Ynisheere”), 1666 – son of Alice ap Rice, stepson of Thomas ap Rice
John ap Rice, 1670 - 2nd son of Perrot (I)
Margaret+ ap Rice, 1675 – widow of William ap Rice (probably Perrot (I)'s brother) and mother of Alice & Lettice ap Rice
James ap Rice, 1692 (Bond) – son of John ap Rice & Elizabeth Newsham
Elinor ap Rice, 1700 – wife of James ap Rice d1692 (above)
Elizabeth Price, 1712 – Elizabeth ap Rice (nee Newsham), widow of John ap Rice d1670
William Loveling, 1717 – husband of Alice ap Rice
Alice Loveling, 1729 – daughter of William ap Rice, granddaughter of Thomas ap Rice
The website has both English and Welsh language search options (top right hand corner) and it's possible to search the Wills collection by clicking the orange box on the left and narrowing down the search field to St David's diocese from the drop-down list.

William ap RICE, brother of Thomas ap Rice 1570 was supposed to Be an Ononion...now he's married with children?

What's an Ononion?

That's just the way he's listed on the FAMILY tree some years back. I thought it meant he was some kind of monk...I don't know.

Just a wild guess, but I think it might be a typo for Oxonian -- a graduate of Oxford University. I don't know that he was, but it's a word that would be easy to mis-type.

Well now that makes sense....at least. I've never gone down that road because the defination I looked up had to do with the church, and being seperate somehow. That's four years back and I didn't take any notes. per usual. I know.

Oxford *students* were expected to (but didn't always) remain single - Oxford *graduates* not so much unless they went into the Catholic priesthood. :-)

Actual "Pembrokeshire Historian" statement onLettice and Alice:

9. Lettice a minor in 1660. 10. Alice who in 1660-2 with her sister Lettice, both minors, claimed damages of £ 7 from the Revd. John Phillipps, vicar of Brawdy, for failing to keep in repair the premises and hedges of Hooke, which Thomas ap Rice, grandfather of the minors had leased to him in 1637 at a rent of £ 6, a couple of hens yearly, with a repairing clause.

They are identified as grandchildren of Thomas ap Rice, but the idea that they were Perrot I's daughters seems to have been an ASS-umption....

I'm working right now on incorporating some of the comments from that message into the profiles.

Erica,

"which everyone always assumes to be that of the Mercer family, is actually that of her mother's family, the Lovelaces ... might be wrong on this ..."

"Is this something we can nail down?"

I was very skeptical so put off looking it up. However, my correspondent is perfectly correct. The arms of Mercer as displayed on Margaret's tomb at Tenby are described as "Gules on a chief indented Or three martlets sable" (Laws & Edwards, Church Book of St. Mary the Virgin, Tenby, 79).

I looked in Burke's General Armory. A good collection, but not very helpful with details.

I found no coat of arms for Mercer that is anything like this. But, it is exactly exactly the arms of Baron Lovelace and similar to the arms of another Lovelace family.

Score! That usage is incorrect in the extreme but it serves to underscore two things -- that Margaret was the daughter of William Mercer and Joanna Lovelace, and the deplorable state of Tudor heraldry ;)

And PBJ thinks Tudor heralds were such hot stuff - ROFLMAO!

There were apparently a very few good ones - and all the others.... ;-)

I don't understand the whole PBJ reliance on Tudor heraldry. It's like she's never looked at the period before.

Probably watched too much "The Tudors" on the telly. :-)

Like I said two years ago: How do minor children of Perrott ap Rice who supposedly died 1640 appear in the head count of 1660 as Minors? The only way that's possible is the mother, Margaret/Pricilla did not re marry and these 2 girls are living proof that he's not dead. Now can someone please explain them?

Dale -- easiest thing in the world. None of them were minors in 1660. Their mother was born about 1600. The children's estimated birth dates run from 1620 to 1640. There is no logical reason to suppose any of them were born later.

If you are talking about the children Maven is talking about, who really were minors in 1660 (as proved by the records), then you need to go back and re-read. The Margaret who everyone thought was a daughter of Perrot is probably really the widow of his brother William, and the Alice and Lettice who were also assumed to be children of Perrot where actually daughters of Perrot's brother William.

Dunno, Justin. I'm willing to think that Perrot I got himself scragged in the English Civil War, possibly in the fighting near his folks' old home (c. 1644, was that?). Which gives him a couple more years to come up with a few more bairns.

Alice and Lettice were minors in 1660-62, but close enough to their majority that they could initiate legal action (probably with an adult sponsor). So they were probably in their late teens (say 18-20) by then.

Now we need some firm or approximate dates on William, to see if he still looks plausible.

Looks like there is more confusion in the "Pembrokeshire Historian" article. "Alice ap Rice of Ramsey Island", who was supposedly the daughter of William ap Rice, was a widow before 1665 and her will was probated in that year. Could that be *Thomas* ap Rice's widow?

Almost forgot: link. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/19b4ff40-6df1-4...

The original document is held by National Library of Wales: Department of Collection Services, and *not* available online. :-(

I just finished going through those messages from my friend and sprinkling the info through the Geni tree as appropriate.

That info shows the will of Alice, widow of Thomas Rice, probated 1665. Don't know if that is the same as Alice of Ramsey Island but sounds like it might be.

We ended up with quite a bit about Perrot's brother William and his two daughters but not much about William, except indirectly. We now have a 1682 post marriage settlement that involves Alice and Lettice, coheirs of the late William ap Rice. Geni has William b c1605 but two children born before 1650 and daughter Lettice necessarily born after 1650.

We might have William a bit older than he needs to be but I don't know if we'd want to move him too far. He married a widow with three children (according to her will).

That suggests he might have had an earlier, unknown marriage, or for some reason he delayed marriage.

Maybe as the younger son of a nearly bankrupt family he had to wait until he found a rich widow to support him.