Comments from Richard Chapman
9 February 2015
HOWARDS AND FITTONS
Introduction
Both Richard Chapman and curator, Erica Isabel Howton, have been collaborating on resolving issues at the point where the Howard family merge with that of the Fitton family, ie, with the marriage of William Howard to Alice Fitton.
The Howard family are clearly an important family and it is important that we get this right.
Background
The first major problem we encountered was a complete failure of those compiling the tree to recognise that at this time, circa 1300, there were two quite different de Fitton families. The first family of Bollin in Cheshire and the second of Fitton Manor, near Lynn on the border of Lincolnshire and Norfolk.
For those with limited geographical knowledge of England, these two locations are on opposite sides of the country. Cheshire is in the West of the Country on the border with Wales, whilst Lynn is in the East on the North Sea Coast.
It is unfortunate, that at this time, both the Bollin family and the Fitton Manor family had both an Edmund and John de Fitton. As such, researchers had got themselves into a complete muddle quoting sources from both camps on the same profile and worst of all, linking the Alice, who married William Howard, directly to the Bollin family.
Alice de Fitton was the daughter and co-heir of the Edmund de Fitton, descended from an Alan de Fitton, who had been granted land around Lynn/Wiggenhale by the Bishop of Ely, circa 1210/20. These were substantial estates and were later to form a major part of the future Howard estates.
Given the considerable amount of original sources concerning the above, the links connecting Alice’s profile to the Bollin family were disconnected with a view to rebuilding her tree showing her much more local descent, ie: Fitton Manor. So in discussing the second problem all those participating should be aware of these two families and avoid quoting sources from the Bollin family, who have a quite different history, family connections and estates.
The second problem, and main area of discussion, is that of Alice Fitton herself and, in particular, the fact that geni has Alice Ufford as the mother of William Howard’s children, rather than Alice de Fitton. Please note that Alice Ufford was William’s first wife, whilst Alice Fitton was his second. Almost all sources relating to this family state that Alice Ufford died without issue and that Alice Fitton was the mother of their children.
The question then arises as to why geni has Alice Ufford as the mother of the Howard children and the answer is quite simple.
The argument goes that Alice was previously married to Simon le Constable (Sir Simon Constable, Knight), who died in York Castle in 1294. At the time of his death, Alice Fitton had been married to Simon for at least ten years. (There is no doubt that this is the case as the whole matter of Simon de Constable’s estates and marriage was brought to a major and famous court case, which includes details of Alice’s relationship to Simon, where it was declared that she was the legitimate wife of Simon, rather than another claimant Kathrine de Wyvelesby) https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pN-GTGzOngAC&pg=PA93&am......
Given that the Howard children were likely to have been born sometime before 1485, the approximate date when she married Simon le Constable, then it would have been impossible for Alice Fitton to be the mother of the Howard children as she could not have married William Howard until after the death of Simon le Constable in 1294. However, the above conclusion is wholly based on the idea that the Alice Fitton, who married Simon de Constable is the same Alice Fitton, who married William Howard.
I have only included a couple of source documents. However, at this point it is important to show that there was at least one other Alice Fitton, who could have married Simon de Constable and that was an Alice de Fitton, wife of Robert de Fitton.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/topographical-hist-norfolk/vol9/pp...
The above not only gives a brief history of the de Fitton family from Alan de Fitton, but mentions a Robert de Fitton (probably Edmund’s brother) having purchased land in the 55th year of Hen III (1270/1). It later goes on to state that Robert’s wife was named Alice and that prayers were offered to them in a local church.
In the event that Robert may have died prior to 1284, then there is no reason to suppose that this Alice de Fitton might not have been the one who married Simon de Constable. At the time of his marriage to Alice circa 1285, Simon de Constable had already been married? to Katherine de Wyvlesby for ten years and prior to that to a lady called Joan, allegedly poisoned by the same Katherine de Wyvelsby. Would Edmund de Fitton have really married his young daughter to this much older Simon de Constable, who already had an heir Robert, possibly even older than his daughter. Surely, the young up and coming William Howard would have been a much more attractive option, particularly in regard to inheritance of the estates.
Conclusion
So, to sum up, we believe it more than possible that the Alice who married Simon de Constable circa 1284/5 was not the Alice Fitton who married William Howard. Given that this is the case, there is no reason to suppose that the marriage of Alice Fitton to William Howard took place sometime between 1280 and 1285. This would give ample time for her to be the mother of William Howard’s children.
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