Katherine Constable (Wyvelesby) - Who was Robert Cumberworth (d 1243) & why does he have a daughter who wasn't his daughter?

The book source referenced only has a footnote to chase, otherwise it's same as Visitations

http://books.google.com/books?id=E-1DAQAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithi...

Well, you left out all the really interesting stuff from Simon Constable's profile! ;)
There seems to be good documentation for Philip as her father, though.

It was a test to see of you'd read it, Linda!

Was Katherine one heck of medieval troublemaker or what? And Simon ... Oh my! Too many wives?

Now I'm wondering if she had been mixed up with

Katheren Hercy (Cumberworth)

Sounds like "Real Housewives of Medieval England". Fortunately, Joan was my GGM and not Katharine!

Until yesterday Geni said "Katherine," aren't you glad Joan was found? :)

Yes! Did you see that Katherine was pardoned for poisoning THREE people? Thanks for posting the 2nd Catherine. She's a 5th cousin, but I found a branch of ancestors in her line.

So how did she get pardoned? Something up her sleeve? Good lawyers??

She poisoned her 1st husband, her 2nd husband's 1st wife & a Henry Thorleye. There is a google reference to Henry as a parish priest. Her profile has a link to a book about Medieval law, but the link wouldn't open. Doesn't say how she was pardoned in the profile.

Don't forget, of course, that while all this was going on, Simon had another wife, Alice, who he married circa 1284. and could well be the father of Richard, born circa 1294. As I've said before, somebody should make a film about this lot!!

Indeed, the Royal court case conducted in 1297 ruled that the legitimate marriage was to Alice, suggesting that the marriage to Katherine may not have been legitimate. Whilst that may have been the case, Katherine still managed to persuade the court to let her hang on to property dower by Robert, the son of Simon and Joan. The next time anyway says that women in the Middle Ages were powerless non entities, tell them about our Katherine.

As mentioned, this court case was of considerable historical legal importance. Details on Katherine's or Alice's profile I think.

I see Liz Taylor playing her in the movie -- too bad she passed, too!

You will note that the only other reference other than the Inquisition to which you refer is not an original source, it is another tree. And any trees hould be taken with a pinch of salt without supporting evidence. In all probability, the information for inclusion in that tree came from another tree, possibly even this one. I've seen so many trees on the web that repeat the same mistakes because people just don't check the original sources. Some trees are just fiction. Please note, that this tree has now had to be amended. I am also aware of other parts of the tree that are incorrect.

Have another look at the Inquisition document. The reference to Robert Cumberworth is not the only untruth or mistake. It appears to say that Robert was the issue of Simon and Katherine. This is nonsense, he was the issue of Joan and Simon. So, at least two 'untruths'. Who was making them and Why? I refer you to the in depth court case a couple of years later, which clarifies much of this. And even indicated that Simon's marriage to Katherine may not have been legitimate.

My own view is that Katherine was using every trick in the book to inherit the estates and telling porkies at the inquisition is more than possible.. As I keep saying, someone should write a book about this lady.

As for Robert.. I've been struggling to find any reference to this family prior to this date. Was this a name, Katherine plucked out of the air, or was there a minor family living in the area and she decided to bluff it out. In a sense it doesn't matter. We know who she was. We know who her father was as we have contemporary records of that gentleman from another court case.

As for who Robert Cumberworth was, there is no evidence to suppose he ever existed at all. Certainly,the family came on the scen within a generation or two, just not yet.

Had you seen this?

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2008-04/...

JUST 1/1098, mm 80 d and 95). One Beatrice de Vere of Sproatley had
been condemned and burned for the poisonings of Joan. Katherine was
also indicted for her alleged part in the poisonings but managed to
persuade a jury that she was innocent.

===

So not only did Katherine (surname Wyverby later evolves to Willoughby) get off -- another woman took the heat (so to speak) ...

===

I see a de Vere of Sproatley family here, is that a property dispute with Simon le Constable?

https://books.google.com/books?id=mwQVAAAAQAAJ&lpg=PA274&ot...

Hey - here's Alice!

http://www.gordonbanks.com/gordon/family/2nd_Site/geb-p/p467.htm

Sir William Howard1
M, #13993, d. between 3 May 1308 and 27 March 1309

Howard was twice married. His first wife, Alice, is said to have been the daughter of Robert of Ufford. His second wife, also named Alice, is said to have been the daughter of John Fitton of Wiggenhall and had previously been married to Simon Constable of Burton Constable in Yorkshire, who had died in prison in 1294 while refusing to plead on a number of criminal charges, including that of poisoning his first wife. Alice was successful in obtaining her dower from Constable's lands, although there was also a rival second wife, Katherine of Weelsby.

Accusations of poisoning were quite common at this period. One has to remember that hygiene was extremely bad. If one had the misfortune to have two or three husbands die of apparently digestive illnesses, and property was at stake, one would have to have extremely good luck not to have a disgruntled would-be heir not to make an accusation.

For a general idea of the state of law and order around this period one has to rmember that when Henry II instituted travelling royal courts and declared a monopoly of royal justice over crimes like murder, whole villages ran away when the circuit judges were on their way - because every family had at least one member who had been accused of murder (and no doubt accused other families of the same).

Even in the sixteenth century, gentry families who could afford to do so would "sue out a general pardon", in other words pay for any possible (past) crimes of which he was accused or might be accused in the future. And you still get lots of people who were found guilty of murder but pardoned. The royal exchequer was chronically short of money.

"The past is a foreign country"

Mark

P.S. There is a history of parliament bio on one Elizabethan Member of Parliament (Francis Hawley) which shows him as running a pirate ring, while given the duty of supressing piracy, taking a cut from one pirate's haul, arresting him, charging him a further amount in order to get him a pardon, then executing him anyway. His grandson of course became a Baron. No doubt a lot of us are descended from him.

There were of course some nice people then, as now. But as I get older and more cynical I find nice people are rarer than I once supposed. The surface changes with society - does the underlying reality?

Mark

Further to William Howard and Alice Fitton. John appears not to have been Alice's father, but her brother. Her father was Edmund Fitton. There are a number of documents dealing with this. One of them being:
Fitton's Manor.

"The ancient family of Fitton were very early enfeoffed herein. Sir Alan de Fitton or Philton, Elias de Fitton, Adam de Fitton, clerk, and Walter de Phiton, &c. were witnesses to a deed, sans date, of Hugh de Ross, of lands in Tydd St. Mary, in Lincolnshire.

In the 55th of Henry III. Robert de Fytton purchased by fine of William de Hevyngham and Gratiana his wife, and her heirs, 36 acres of land, and 32 pence rent, per ann. in Wigenhale.

About this time lived Sir Edmund de Fitton, lord of this manor of Fitton's, who had a daughter Alice, married to Sir William Howard, and a son, John de Fitton, who was one the justices appointed to take care of the preservation of the lands in Marshland from being overflowed, in the 15th of Edward I.

John de Fitton, and Margery his wife, in the 6th of Edward II. settled on themselves in tail, by fine, 20 messuages, a mill, 394 acres of land, 83 of meadow, 41 of pasture, 60 of heath, 120 of marsh, 60 of moor, and the rent of 11l. 13s. 4d. with 5 quarters of salt in Wigenhale, Tilney, Islington, &c. and in the 17th of the said King, by a fine levied between John de Fitton, and Amicia his wife; and Ralph de Edynesthorp, vicar of St. German's, 13 messuages, a mill, 250 acres of land, 62 of meadow, 24 of pasturre, 60 of heath, and 6 marks per ann. rent were settled on John and Amicia his wife, in tail, in Wigenhale, Islyngton, &c. remainder to Thomas, first son, and after to John, 2d son of John de Tilney.

John de Fitton, styled Sir John in some writings, dying without issue, Thomas de Tilney, son of John de Tilney, by a sister of John de Fitton, succeeded in the estate abovementioned, settled on him.
I have updated the geni profiles with much of the above, but as I say, there is more.

There is an absolute stack of info re. Alice Fitton and her husband, William Howard, who was, amongst other things, an MP.

Alice is already on geni. Her profile being: Alice Fitton

Erica, Perhaps, you might consider a merge?

Richard

Thanks for posting this info, Richard! Alice, as it turns out, is my 20th GGM thru her 2nd marriage.
Simon & Joan are my 21st GGP's. And, thankfully, I am not related to Katherine!

We have to work to fix that "un related" idea by filling out the Willoughby family ...

(evil grin)

Oh, I see there are Percys & Nevilles in the Willoughby tree, so they may be, although I didn't search past a cousin relationship.

Something happened with Alice Howard's profile. Earlier, she came up as my 20th GGM & now she's showing as my 20th GGF's 2nd wife...history is so fluid! :P

Also, the only Beatrice de Vere I could find was born de Gand, & lived in the 12th century. Was curious as to Beatrice "hung & burned's" husband's identity, since I have a Sproatley de Vere line.

Linda point me to the Sproatley crew, she has to be from that area.

Sir Simon's inventory of assets included a (something medieval) rented to "Ivo de Ver's heir" for a penny a year.

I am imagining a terrible dinner party where the priest dies from food poisoning. Would you burn the cook?

Re: Alice (married William Howard).

He had two Alice wives, and Geni, based on the Dictionary of National Biography, had the descent line from Alice 2 - Fitton.

But there was an update to DNB in 2005 by ODNB, which shows Alice Fitton's marriage to Simon Constable missed by DNB. The Howard children were born when Sir Simon was married (or something) to Katherine, and Sir William to Alice 1 - Ufford.

Sir Simon died 1294 so Alice Fitton remarried to Sir William after that. She was living in July 1310.

So -- we're Ufford's, not Fitton's, as of 2005. :)

"Sir Simon de Vere, of Sproatley and Goxhill" - Geni profile. Son of Walter de Vere.
Sorry I can't provide a link - my PC has a virus, so I'm using a tablet.
Didn't check this a.m., but as of last night, the About section on William Howard lists conflicting info on the 2 Alices (has 1 account making Alice Fitton our gram, followed by 2nd version, where she isn't).

Yah, I have to explain better why people will see the order of Alice marriages differently in different sources.

Well let's see if perhaps De Ver was at the deadly dinner. ...

This Simon de Vere is apparently not connected to Alberic de Vere. His grandfather was a Goushill, and his father took the de Vere surname from his mother, Gundreda - who's not connected to Alberic, either.

So I believe also, Linda. The Oxfordshire De Vere's seem unrelated to the Sproathill line.

Erica, slightly off-topic, but I just read a research paper by RaGena C. DeAragon, on Academia.edu, entitled "Brief History of the Veres in England, 1086-1230, Part 1: Aubrey de Vere". The author is working on the Vere family history. Thought this might be of interest to you.