Richard III of England - DNA Contribution...

Justin Swanstrom, Thank you so so.... much Laura Kelson

Thanks for posting the Svend I link, Wanda...he is my ggf on 3 lines, but the one where we have the closest connection is from my 2ggm, Pamela Wellman (Bullock). Looks like our common ggf is Henry FitzHugh, 3rd Baron Ravensworth.

Linda, I am glad you looked, I never would have known. That is awesome! So we are 13th Cousin's through the Lincolns and 31st Cousin 2x removed through Sweyn Forkbeard. We probably have more. :)

Did you read that story about Sweyn Blot? I ran across him while researching Sweyn's.

That was pretty interesting. They called him Blood Swain over some Pagean ritual thing. People having to drink blood from an animal and stuff like that. They were having a fight about Christianity versus Paganism. Crazy story..
http://fornsed.tumblr.com/post/1452658895/last-heathen-king-of-sweden

Wanda, there are probably lots of Swans and Sweyns in our ancestries who might have given their name to their descendants. It's the same as the Scandinavian Sven (Svein, Svend), but also also the same as the Gaelic name Suibne.

I couldn't find the Swaynes in your ancestry but I did see Hendersons. Are they the Clan Gunn Hendersons? Or do you know yet?

Ulf, I almost missed your post, sorry about that. Yes, do share Somerled as an Ancestor but the cousin calculator's don't work with anything other then close relatives. I found a better shared ancestor for us with King Harald
This is you
http://www.geni.com/path/Ulf-Martinsson+is+related+to+Harald-III-Si...
This is me
http://www.geni.com/path/Wanda+is+related+to+Harald-III-Sigurdsson-...
By his being a direct Grandparent for us rather than a cousin it is easier to find our shared ancestor. When you get on gematch, we may be able to show it there as well. :)

Doing the math Ulf, we are 27th Cousin's 5 x removed through Harald III who is a direct ancestor for both of us. He sounds pretty cool. :)
Here is the cousin calculator if anyone wants to use it.
http://www.searchforancestors.com/utility/cousincalculator.html

Wanda, there is so many to chose amongst, what cousine grad does we becomes with this one?

Svend I Haraldsen «Forkbeard» Tveskæg is Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson's 27th great grandfather!

http://www.geni.com/path/Ulf-Martinsson+is+related+to+Svend-I-Haral...

Svend I Haraldsen «Forkbeard» Tveskæg is Wanda Marie Pierce's 32nd great grandfather!

http://www.geni.com/path/Wanda+is+related+to+Svend-I-Haraldsen-Fork...

I played along with the cousin finder tool.
The one in the above post.
Svend I Haraldsen «Forkbeard» Tveskæg
You and your relative are 28th cousins 5 times removed

Some others with the result in the middle.

Wanda Marie Pierce is Richard II "the Good", Duke of Normandy's 26th great granddaughter!
http://www.geni.com/path/Richard-II-the-Good-Duke-of-Normandy+is+re...

You and your relative are 25th cousins 2 times removed

Richard II "the Good", Duke of Normandy is Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson's 24th great grandfather!
http://www.geni.com/path/Ulf-Martinsson+is+related+to+Richard-II-th...

Wanda Marie Pierce is Judith 'Fausta' de Flandre's 26th great granddaughter!
http://www.geni.com/path/Judith-de-Flandre+is+related+to+Wanda?from...

You and your relative are 23rd cousins 4 times removed

Judith 'Fausta' de Flandre is Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson's 22nd great grandmother!
http://www.geni.com/path/Ulf-Martinsson+is+related+to+Judith-de-Fla...

Wanda Marie Pierce is Mieszko III Stary, książe's 23rd great granddaughter!
http://www.geni.com/path/Mieszko-III-Stary+is+related+to+Wanda?from...

You and your relative are 24th cousins 2 times removed

Mieszko III Stary, książe is Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson's 25th great grandfather!
http://www.geni.com/path/Ulf-Martinsson+is+related+to+Mieszko-III-S...

Geni says
Wanda Marie Pierce is your 23rd cousin twice removed.

Ulf, you are correct :) i only did the first one I saw, this is another nice ancestor now we are Swedish Cousins again. :) Sweyn Fork beard is another cool dude ;) With Sweyn Fork Beard we are 28th Cousins 2 x removed. :)
If Gedmatch picks it up for our ancient ancestor's it would be very small centimorgans, probably 2CM and we would have to manually adjust for the ancient dna possibly taking the SNPs down to 500. Sometimes you have to play with it to get it to reveal the connection. The thing I found with Gedmatch is that you don't always see the ancient connections unless you do that and you have to take it slightly below a certain point to see CM at a certain level. For example, to see a 3cm connection you might have to go to 2cm because it won't show up with 3cm.

What I like to do to really confirm an ancestor match is to use the following checklists.
1. Geni trail or paper trail
2. Surname match on FTDNA (It will not pick up ancient matches unless you have a lot of them in a community and or have a more recent one as an anchor.
3. CM and SNP match on Gedmatch
4. Ethnicity match on Gedmatch

An example on #3, a cousin and I matched on on FTDNA and we found we shared a Gold Ancestor, a Talbot Ancestor and a Warrenne (Plantagenet) Ancestor. I had not entered Talbot so I had to do more work to find it but it was there. FTDNA found it and put it in bold. Gold was our MRCA and Warrenne showed up as well. What this told me was that so long as family line marries back into the family line (like all the royals did) it preserves the DNA of the ancient ancestor's. Kind of like they came home and found a familiar place on a chromosome. If those family lines do not marry and have Children for say 500 yrs. they may not show up at all because they have no anchor and did not become sticky. I think the peerage and monarchy instinctively knew this and thus married their cousins. They were forced to of course or they would loose lands, property and titles. Because we share several Swedish Ancestors in the same community they should show up. Have you signed up the DNA company yet?

Nice job Ulf! You have found us lot's of shared ancestors. I will be excited to see them on Gedmatch etc. :) If you want to find more I can PM you my History Link. It would be faster but it's very long so let me know.

No, I haven't had time yet, but maybe this weekend.

Thank you Justin:) This reminded me of where I saw clan Gunn mentioned on Wikipedia. I had forgotten about it. I have a lot of work to do on the Henderson's there were so so many of hem. Someone in the Henderson's said they belonged to Clan Henderson. When they left Ireland they settled in different areas. The farthest back I have documented for my Henderson's is http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/m/i/l/Brenda-Kay-Miller/... and you can see by looking how much work it will take to add them. By doing so I hope that one person will show up, where they split which will take them to Clan Henderson.

Good news Justin! While I do not match Gunn in Bold, I do match Caithness which is associated with the Gunns. http://www.clanhendersonsociety.org/ancestoral-henderson-regions/
It is ONLY a DNA match and my FTDNA Cousin whom I share the Caithness DNA surname match with is the same one whom I share Angus Og MacDonald match with among others. He is my only match on FTDNA who has the ancient clans in his tree.
Geni shows I am related to John Sinclair Master of Caithness but if there is another connection via the Henderson's, I do not have that figured out yet. I'm surprised this would show up being a 6th Cousin 13x removed for a DNA match.
http://www.geni.com/path/Wanda+is+related+to+John-Sinclair?from=600...
The Gun ancestor he has is shown living in Caithness, It may be more private so I will pm you.

Wanda, that John Sinclair and Bessie Gunn his mistress are (perhaps) my direct line. I have them disconnected on Geni at the moment because I have some doubts about one of the links, so for right now I have to settle for 10th cousins 10 times removed ;)

A family of Hendersons in Caithness claim to be descendants of the Gunns. That's why I asked. The Gunns have a tradition that they're descended from Sveinn Ásleifarson, one of the heroes of the Orkneyinga Saga. Recent research shows the Gunns are probably wrong about that, but he's still a very interesting figure.

Justin, I kind of thought that might be who you were researching. :)
I hope you are able to find the link. I have two pages of Henderson's on FTDNA. So far none of them seem to connect with Gunn directly. It may be that the Henderson's who connect with Gunn's simply have not joined any DNA companies. Then their is he Glencoe incident. What a terrible thing that was. I didn't realize they had intended to slaughter the Henderson clan along with the MacDonald's. Apparently the two clans were friends. Getting back to the Sinclairs, are we cousin's through them? It might explain our more ancient gedmatch dna match?

Wanda, you have opened a whole new puzzle for me. Not only is my Sweyn Forkbeard my 33rd grandfather, my late husband's last name was Swaine and my children's father's 27th great grandfather. Their father, John (Jan Harald) Vetne is first generation Norwegian American and I knew we were related at some point, but I never knew where. This is one point.

Oh, Ulf, I see he is also your 27th GGF. Now I wonder whether you are related to my kids' Norsk dad.

Sure enough, Ulf, Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson is John (Jan) Vetne's 17th cousin once removed.
John (Jan) Vetne
→ Dagny Løvvik
his mother → Andreas Løvvik
her father → Gunnar Nielsen Løvvik
his father → Siri Gunnarsdatter Løvvik
his mother → Gunnar Halstenson Tesdal
her father → Hallstein Gunnarson Garatun
his father → Gunnar Nilsson Garatun
his father → Lisbeth Maria Hansdtr Unneland
his mother → Anna Catharina Rieber*
her mother → Katrina Helvig Lauritzdatter Galtung (Galte)
her mother → Elisabeth Ottesdatter Orning
her mother → Otte Thomassen Orning
her father → Thomas Svendson Orning, til Ellinggård
his father → Svend Madsen Orning, til Eget
his father → Anna Tordsdatter Roed, fra Vustgaard
his mother → Ide Mortensdatter, til Hjermeslevgård
her mother → Mette Eriksdatter Rotfeld, til Bratskov
her mother → Kirsten Eriksdatter Rotfeld
her sister → NN Brok Gere
her daughter → Peder Mogensen Ravensberg, 1458-1490 til Førslevgård
her son → Margrethe Pedersdatter Ravensberg, til Førslevgaard
his daughter → Joachim Lassen Beck, 1522-1572 til Førslevgaard
her son → Kirsten Jockumsdatter Beck
his daughter → Elsa Jörgensdatter Daa
her daughter → Kerstin Larsdotter Dufva
her daughter → Jörgen Knudsen Måneskiöld
her son → Kerstin Jörgensdotter Måneskiöld
his daughter → Göran Nilsson
her son → Ingrid Göransdotter
his daughter → Petter Hansson
her son → Bernt Pettersson
his son → Anders Berntsson
his son → Emilia Charlotta Andersdotter
his daughter → Carl Mandus Martinsson
her son → Göte Ivan Martinsson
his son → Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson
his son

Lois, that looks like a travel map thrue Norway, Denmark and Sweden!

Justin, I am not related to John Sinclair, so far as I know, but Bessie Rorieson Gunn of Stemster is my 11th cousin 14 times removed.

Yes, Ulf. Give me a known name in those areas and I probably connect.

Harald III Sigurdsson «Hard ruler» Hardråde is my 26th great grandfather.

Svend I Haraldsen «Forkbeard» Tveskæg is my second cousin 29 times removed. This is getting interesting.

Still lurking, reading, learning and waiting for my test results.

Harald III Sigurdsson «Hard ruler» Hardråde is my 28th great grandfather.

That is so cool to have so many cousins related through Fork Beard :)
Lois, my condolences on the loss of your late Husband. Did he have any family that came from Oregon by chance?

Oh yes! Harald III Sigurdsson «Hard ruler» Hardråde (1015-1066) is also my 28th great grandfather.

"Swan" (Old English)= pig-herder. "Svejn" (Old Norse) = young lad. (According to the OED). "Swain" (later on) is a poetic description of a rustic lover.The etymology makes sense if one realises that pigs primarly foraged in forests, until population densities meant they were cooped up unnaturally in sties and fed with garbage, and forests made a good place for amorous liaisons.

Churchill, by the way, described pigs as the perfect pets. "Cats lok down on you. Dogs look up to you. A pig considers you as his equal"

Mark

I just realized something. Justin, we were talking about Master John Sinclair a little while ago.

Getting back on topic about Richard III; John Sinclair is Master of Caithness. He is also a direct descendant of John of Gaunt's Daughter Joan Beaufort. Joan's Brother is John Beaufort 1st Earl of Somerset. Wasn't it the Somerset line who was trying to match Richard iii?

My DNA match is with the Sinclair's which include John Sinclair Master of Caithness. He is the 6th Generation from John of Gaunt. The only way my cousin and I could match is by going through the Beaufort's. Because of this I believe that Jneither ohn of Gaunt, Edward iii nor Philippa had a non paternity event.

The other reason why I believe Queen Philippa did not cheat on Edward is the proof is in the genes. It's as simple as Gedmatch. Look at all the oracle 4 results and you will find Philippa's ethnic background there. She was Polish, and Hungarian etc. Follow Edward's line and you will get to the Spanish Kings and Queens, that also shows up. Edward and Philippa are valid, John is valid and so are the Beauforts. If any non paternity event's occurred it would have to be farther down in the Somerset line.

There are lot's of people here who are descendants of Edward and Philippa and some who are descendants of John of Gaunt. I think their ethnic background would show up in gedmatch so long as they are not too many generations back.

This is the geni trail I have to Sinclair - you can see where it has to go through to get there. My distant cousin has many more generations of Sinclair's. He has five generations of them.

http://www.geni.com/path/Wanda+is+related+to+John-Sinclair?from=600...

The oldest generation of Sinclair's is Robert Sinclair who happens to be Edward iii 9th Grandparent through a different channel.

http://www.geni.com/path/Wanda+is+related+to+Robert-de-St-Clair?fro...

Through this second loop they go through Edward iii twice.
This kind of validates John of Gaunt and the Beaufort's at least as to their legitimacy doesn't it?

Wanda we have the same relatives Robert de St Clair is related to mehttp://www.geni.com/path/Judy-Rice+is+related+to+Robert-de-St-Clair...