Richard III of England - DNA Contribution...

Dear Wanda,

People were complaining about the explosion of knowledge at the very least by the early nineteenth century. And I wouldn't be surprised to find medieval people grumbling that they couldn't keep up with all of these newfangled inventions (to take just one example, water mills not only powered milling grain but sawing logs).

One thing that has changed is the level of secrecy, because of international patent law. It may seem counter-intuitive, but the mortality rates among upper class women in the eighteenth century from child-birth may have been higher than for lower classes. The reason? the higher classes hired doctors who, in difficult cases of birth, poked around with hands which had been recently doing autopsies: result, pueperal fever and death. The lower classes just hired mid-wives. The people who invented forceps to deal with the difficult births managed to keep their invention secret for about fifty years.

Mark

Wanda, this is one of my "soapbox" speeches -- if you're related to one of these people, you're related to all of them ;)

There was a guy, maybe 10 years ago, who was pushing the argument that European royals are so intermarried that they should be treated as a separate ethnic group. No one was arguing that particular point, but there were quite a few people arguing a similar point -- that the old nobility in each European country was also almost their own ethnic group, overlapping with the royals.

Yes, that is probably true, if you have one, you have them all, in some cases, but, it depends on which one you have and what he or she was and most of all, when and where this person entered the scen of nobilitys.

If we take Djengis Khan for example, so is it estimated that he may have 15 miljons living decendents today, consider that in Asia alone, live at least half of the earths population, that means that this man who lived around 1200 have less than one thousandth related to him, even though he had at least 100 children when he lived.

Anyone who really thinks or believe that if he only had lived 500 year earlier, he would have had a lot more descendants would still be wrong,
the amount wouldn't be so much higher.

IIRC Anne Neville was Richard III's first cousin once removed - he had to get a Papal dispensation for that, and "forgot" to mention that in the meantime she had become his sister-in-law (because his brother married her sister).

Canon law frowned on that, and there is some question whether the marriage was ever valid.

(Americans, particularly but not exclusively on the frontier, thumbed their noses at canon law whenever there wasn't a direct blood relationship.)

Hi Theresa Renee, that is awesome on both counts for you have Neville's through both paths. Are you with any of the DNA companies or gedmatch by chance? Thank you for sharing :)

Justin that cracks me up because there is a lot of truth to it. If they did indeed have their own ethnic group I wonder what they would have called it?

lol Maven because while they took that very seriously, it's still kind of funny. :) I've read here and there about those Papal permissions. A nice gift for the pope and it was a done deal, you could marry your first cousin.

Ulf, pedigree collapse is supposed to happen and keep us from having too many ancestors or the earth from being too populated. The interesting part is where we collapse at. It seems there are multiple small collapses leading to a gigantic collapse but who knows how far back that is for each person?

Wanda: With the Pope's permission you could - and some of the Spanish Habsburgs DID - marry their niece. (The last of the Spanish Habsburgs, Charles II, was so inbred that his parents might as well have been opposite-sex clones of the same person.)

You
→ Thelma Cormier
your mother → Albert Cormier
her father → Adelard Cormier
his father → Emelia Gauthier
his mother → Joseph Dieudonne Gauthier
her father → Ambroise Gauthier
his father → Ignace Gauthier
his father → Ignace Gauthier
his father → Marie-Catherine LeMay
his mother → Michel-Charles LeMay
her father → Michel Lemay dit Le Poudrier
his father → Marie Gaschet
his mother → Marie Beaumont
her mother → Sir Thomas Beaumont ,of Stoughton Grange,
her father → Nicholas Beaumont, MP,
his father → Richard Beaumont
his father → William Beaumont
his father → George Beaumont
his father → Joan d'Arcy
his mother → Joane D'Arcy, Baroness Darcy
her mother → Elizabeth Ferrers
her mother → Joan Beaufort, Countess of Westmorland
her mother → Cecily Neville, Duchess of York
her daughter → Richard III of England
her son

Wanda Marie,

Unfortunately, I have yet, to do any DNA testing. But I have it in my bucket list. I've never heard of Gedmatch. If we could, pm with a link, possibly. (As to not deviate from the Main Topic of Discussion, here, Richard III, that would be great!

Maven, honestly!! :-D :-P rotfl!!! :-)

Elvin, we share Two Relationship paths, so far. These I have pm to you, yesterday. Both through Albert Cormier. ;-)

Justin, Yes, there are also, many nobles which actually do, "overlap" with the Royals, by way of half siblings, cousin- ship, marriage etc. ALL belonging to the Counts and Countesses, Lords and Ladys etc.

To take Justin's "soap-box speech", the "easy" genealogies (in Britain and Europe) are the royals. The supposedly "easy" genealogies (in Britain, at least) are the peerage, because they are equally intermarried, although they may have new people with money entering their bloodlines; and because researchers of varying capabilities have been trying to collate their intermarriages for at least 200 years. I go in for the gentry, because you still get a lot of data which you can usually source, lots of correlations between two separate family trees, enough correlations which have still not been recognised to make one feel that one is adding something original, and of course a nice fake or two along the way.

But the real work is ordinary people. There's more documentation there, in some places, than most people realise, or want to realise. Who wants to be a descendant of Charlemagne, like everyone else, if you could prove yourself to be the descendant of a peasant born 600 years later - really distinctive!

Mark

What would be really great Mark is if I could find my Great Grandfather on my Mother's side of the family. My Grandfather appears to have no ancestors' and virtually comes out of thin air. lol, On that same side of the family my Grandmother's ancestors go back to a primitive archaic lifestyle that did not even have a written language until St. Innocent introduced them to Cyrillic after the 1840s then gave them their own language to read in 1879. My Mother was the first to go to college on her maternal side of the family in the entire history of our people which goes back more than 7000 yrs. or so. There are no written records. What would you write on? Snow and ice melt so it wasn't logical. With only 3 short months to prepare for a long winter often fraught with times of starvation, no one was going to spend a precious moment carving words in a rock. The closest to a written language we had was pretroglyphs that would show meeting places or tell of a Shaman or a good hunting ground. That was about it. Stories were told sometimes through totem poles but even the totem poles were connected with symbols of spirits and animism.
In comparison to my Father's side of the family which has a very long and generous contribution of ancestors and information that is well recorded. Geni makes it easy and it is comforting to know that you know who your ancestor's are and can look them up in a minute or less and they have a story to share with you.
The two sides of my family are a complete paradox to each other. I am happy with both though, family is family whether they have a crown on their head or a spear in their hand and that is what is important. :)

Canada, Premières Nations, on your grandmothers side Wanda?

If so they go back much further than 7000 years, maybe up to 40.000!
and certainly at least 18.000 years.
I have read of several waves of population migrations, so maybe you're
referring to one of the later ones?

This is petroglyphs from Hisingen, Torslanda, Tumlehed, where most of my roots are on my grandmothers side.
depicted in picture, a deer, dolphins and fishing nets.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/H%C3%A4llm%C3%A5...

Nice rack on that deer Ulf..lol ;) how long ago did your ancestors' use petroglyphs?

I don't think our's was so long ago. Shamanism was practiced fairly recently and the ability to predict weather very rare but exists in a few. I am going to write a book on Shamanism and have been working on it for a while. It may be shocking to some so I sometimes drag my feet about it.

http://frontierscientists.com/2011/06/shaman-whalers-of-ancient-kod...

My reply to Woodman Mark, just a common farmer...

"But the real work is ordinary people. There's more documentation there, in some places, than most people realise, or want to realise. Who wants to be a descendant of Charlemagne, like everyone else, if you could prove yourself to be the descendant of a peasant born 600 years later - really distinctive!"

Olof i Hästevik Hansson is Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson's 11th great grandfather!

http://www.geni.com/path/Ulf-Martinsson+is+related+to+Olof-i-H%C3%A...

Wanda wrote, how long ago did your ancestors' use petroglyphs?

Hard to say, but it could be somewhere in between 12.000 to 1500 years ago, the one depicted is between 7000-10.000 years old.

Here in Gothenburg, the new rulers ( I guess that if most of them was members here, they would in deed only find their mother and father,
if even that) they do not take care of petroglyphs, they are and have destroyed most of it since they do in fact only care about their own personal gain.

They do not think about future generations, they have absolutely no foresight, and above all, we who do have our roots here are the losers, like most indigenous people in the world. Just a little while ago they really claimed that "we" were extinct.

ima off topic but can some one try to give datation to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi%27kmaq_hieroglyphic_writing

btw this is not talked mutch imagine back 400 years ago european went crazy to learn that a sophistikate language existed in the new world

Wanda, when you write that book on shamanism, get in touch. I'm head of the trade organization for New Age bookstores and publishers. My dad was a Lakota medicine man (pejuta wicasa, herbalist). My husband owns a New Age bookstore that does a booming business in shamanism and related topics.

I live in a world full of shamans and shamanic practitioners ;)

I'd love to see what you come up with.

Wanda,

"Primitive" life-styles often weren't all that primitive, though they may have appeared so to Europeans who arrived with superior technology, writing, etc. Look at the Inuit in Greenland, who easily survived the Norse colonists. The technology of their kayaks and whale-hunting equipment was superb. The Norse doomed themselves by a whole series of things which included trying to cling to a "superior" culture - keeping cows, building churches with brass bells, when they did not have the iron for the simplest instruments, etc. What both lacked was iron, because there ain't any (or precious little) in Greenland.

Jared Diamond's books seem to me the best explanation of why some cultures have done better in competition with others (i.e. why West Europeans took over so much of the world). It's not the whole story; why did the Turkish/Muslim world go into stagnation, etc? But it's quite a lot of it (though my bet would be that Western Europe now sees the stagnation that the Muslim world and China saw).

Justin - is Lakota really as beautiful a language as, say, the "Flashman" books claim?

Mark

Mark, it is to me, but I suppose any language is beautiful if you have fond associations with it.

Meaning no disrespect to any other language, for me none of them can top the beauty and sheer romance of Swedish, Norwegian and Danish ;)

Must say this, I really get confused about Greenland Woodman,
it's because as what I understand, the settlers from Scandinavia entered in fact an empty land, there were not one single Inuit of Greenland when they arrived. What happen was that the inuits came later, and killed the remaining settlers. It's kind of exactly the opposite to what you say.

If I'm wrong, correct me with facts.

Just a little thing about beauty.
Neck collar from a place where one of my grandparents lived on my mothers side.
Möne socken i Ulricehamns kommun i Västergötland, made around 400-550 A.D

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6nekragen#mediaviewer/File:M%C3%...

Justin, thank you so much for your wonderful offer. You give me inspiration and courage to keep on with my book effort. I think the hardest thing to deal with is that they either killed all of our Shaman or the few who survived they belittled or feared so it is always a controversial subject. I think that's awesome that your Father is a Lakota Medicine man and herbalist. I have always strongly believed in natural medicine and healing. It's the way it was always meant to be.

Woodman mark lowes, when your early years are spent with no running water, no electricity, no indoor plumbing, no television, no radio, no phone, no heat other then a wood stove and it's 30 below, it feels very primitive. lol this was only a few steps up from living in a barabara or an igloo. I guess I am trying to say primitive lifestyle rather than lack of sophisticated weaponry, canoes or clothing. :)

Ulf, that is a beautiful necklace and I agree, it is a shame they would destroy such important history and art.

This article is a bit technical, but it talks about DNA research into Irish clans and ancient kings, a topic we were discussing earlier.

Ghosts of DNA Past: Irish Kings
http://originhunters.blogspot.com/2015/01/ghosts-of-dna-past-irish-...

The meat of the article is in these two paragraphs:

"Here are a couple of interesting insights from my research. Niall Noígíallach was High King of Ireland around 378 CE and founder of the Uí Néill dynasty. Historically, his half-brother Brión, was one of the founders on the Connachta dynasty and an ancestor of the last High King of Ireland, Ruaidrí Ua Conchobair. If their genealogies are correct, the evidence is in their descendant’s DNA. The data shows that Uí Néill and Ua Conchobair share the same SNP, R-M222. The Uí Néill and Ua Conchobair modals are a 6-step match at 67 markers. There is a 99% probability of a relationship not further than 1,260 years ago. The results make a strong case for the validity of this historic genealogy.

"Brian Boru, High King of Ireland in 1002 CE, belonged to the Dál gCais dynasty and Tadhg Mac Cárthaigh, the first King of Desmond, belonged to the Eóganachta dynasty. Ancient genealogies have the Eóganachta and Dál gCais dynasties descended from Ailill Aulom, the son-in-law of legendary king Conn of the Hundred Battles. The Mac Cárthaighs and Uí Briúins do not share the same SNP (R-L226 vs. R-CTS4466), but by descent they would share a common R-DF13 ancestor. The Mac Cárthaigh and Uí Briúin modals are an 11-step match at 67 markers. There is a 99% probability of a relationship not further than 1,920 years ago. This puts a Mac Cárthaigh-Uí Briúin common ancestor as a contemporary of the legendary Conn."

BTW, this is an excellent blog to read if you are interested in the DNA of our ancient ancestors. It's one of the few I subscribe to.

lol Justin, I was arguing that very same point with one of my FTDNA/Gedmatch cousins this past week. He was my ONLY match for the McMullan's. I followed the trail for McMullan archaic ancestry and through articles it pointed to Brion. However they said it was a falsification. I don't think it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_Maol%C3%A1in

My Cousin said he belonged to RM222. I'm just a girl so I don't count in the YDNA of things however I told him that my McDaniel cousin matched 66 of 67 markers for Niall. They don't even list McDaniels for surnames belonging to the Niall group but then history says McDaniel comes from McDonnell or MacDonnell and I guess that one does.

I suggested that my cousin may descend from Niall's older half Brother Brion because of the RM222 which comprises just 8.2% of Niall matches. It's just my gut instinct though. Opinions anyone?

Thank you for the link Justin, I'm going to check it out :)

BTW, Geni profiles say that Niall was born in 311 and Briuin was born in 480.

That was good you checked Linda :) those years wouldn't make sense at all for Brion being an older Brother. hmmmm

I try (in a nice cowardly way) to stay out of Irish or Welah genealogies. But if my memory serves, the Tir na n'Og was an island whose inhabitants emjoyed perpetual youth. In which case, of course, Niall and Briuin could well have been brothers, even if born 170 years apart, if their parents enjoyed this desirable place of residence.

The reality is that it is impossible to prove descents at this period. Either they come from bardic literature, or from some sort of similar tradition (or fakes). Take the Early Wessex Kings (c. 500). They have obviously Celtic names, translated into Anglo-Saxon. Modern archaeology and place-name evidence seems to show that this was not simply fictional, although some of it was. But although some of the correlations are quite tantalising, it seems unlikely in the extreme that anyone will ever be able to sort it out, even on the basis of probabilty.

Mark

That's an interesting thought Woodman... I had never heard of Tir n n'Of so I had to look it up of course. I often wonder if the mythology of yore was simply their way of entertainment. After all, they had no televisions, radios, cell phones etc. like we poor digitally overwhelmed 21st century people. The other problem of course was their time table and record keeping methods. If they were intent on killing each other off all the time the last one standing may not have been the best history recorder. Lastly, people of that time didn't always have someone telling them the mysteries of life. If they couldn't make sense of things a fairy tale might put it in perspective. There was also the aspect of poor diets, mental illness and so on. I think people got most of it right, everything else may have slipped through the cracks of one of the above categories leaving us scratching our heads. :)

Once again, Geni is full of surprises about the wide range of dates.

Niall and his older half-brother Brión are semi-legendary 4th or 5th century kings. The AFM chronology says Niall reigned as High King 378–405. The FFE chronology says 368–395. Not much difference.

I don't have any dates for Brión. Would have to look them up, but the events of their lives intertwine in a way that would require they lived at the same time. I have no doubt that AFM and FFE give him dates that overlap with Niall.

There are some relatively new academic chronologies that supplement and correct AFM and FFE. Someday someone on Geni will take on the project of using a single dating system for all the Irish kings.

I think we can safely leave Tír na nÓg out of it. It was 2000 years earlier ;)

Justin, I went to Ghosts of DNA Past: Irish Kings and found Ui Neill's DNA. Out of 67 markers, I have 18 markers that are 2 digits apart, 1 at 3 digits different from Ui Neill's markers. My 425 marker is 0 and Ui-Neill's is 12.

In comparing the the 14 descendant tribal markers, I am off one Y-STR Value. At marker DYS392 I have 13 and Ui Neill's is 14.

Geni's coincidental lineage report is that Niall of the Nine Hostages (Ui Neill) is my 44th great grandfather.