Sir Thomas Foljambe, III, Kt., of Tideswell and Wormhill, etc. - References & Corrections

Trevor Lilley was asking about Benedictitia

From revisions, it looks like her original name was ? Folsgamble

I'll see if I can find a reference via her husband.

That was easier than I thought - we have a time traveler

From http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/families/foljambe/foljambe.shtml

Sir GODFREY FOLJAMBE, of Walton, Knt., born at Walton on Easter-day, 27 March, 1472 & KATHERINE, dau. of Sir John Leeke, of Sutton-en-le-Dale, co. Derby, Knt. She d. 24 May, 1529

Their children included:

BENEDICTA, born on Feast of Translation of St. Edward, 1499, married to Sir William Dunham, Knt., of Kirklington.

Well, this 1299 woman does have a reference (how good?)

http://www.onegreatfamily.com/fh/Benediticita-Folsgamble/234036480

Father: Thomas Folsgambe
Mother: Alice Furnival
Spouse: Rychert Dunham

Yes I found information on the Benedicta Newenham who was born in 1499.

and information on Rychert Dunham which did not list his wife.

OneGreatFamily is a site that automatically merges profiles, I joined years ago but pulled out after a few weeks because of the mess. So far as I know they are just personal trees added.

Can you take a look at Benedicta 1499's extra husband with the same dates as her real one? William Needham

I will change 1299 Benedicta to "unknown wife" of Rychert Dunham & disconnect her from fictional parents. I think the only "real" child is Robert, the others look suspiciously like time traveling dups of the 1499ers.

Is Benedicta's husband John or William? The Pedigree would I think be more reliable than Burke's & the 1905 Dunham family history.

Benedicta's birth date was 13 Oct 1499

From http://www.stedwardgg.com/five.html

ST EDWARD THE CONFESSOR
"His feast day on 13th October commemorates his translation to the Abbey."

Contradictions in sources now

Humphrey Stafford

Should be same "Humphrey of the silver hand" as

Sir Humphrey Stafford, MP

The DNB article for Rt. Rev. John Stafford, Archbishop of Canterbury lists them as his parents

http://books.google.com/books?id=migJAAAAIAAJ&lpg=PA454&ots...

I think the problem is with the horrid Maltravers pedigree

http://books.google.com/books?id=PicAAAAAQAAJ&lpg=PA78&ots=...

Humphrey ‘of the silver hand,’ was probably not the parent of Rt. Rev. John Stafford, Archbishop of Canterbury if that was what you meant.

The DNB article - STAFFORD, JOHN (d. 1452), archbishop of Canterbury, was probably natural son of Sir Humphrey Stafford of Southwick Court, North Bradley, Wiltshire, by one Emma of North Bradley. ..... The archbishop's father, who was twice married, had a legitimate son (by his first wife), Sir Humphrey Stafford, called ‘of the silver hand,’

So Humphrey Stafford would be half brother of Rt. Rev. John Stafford, Archbishop of Canterbury and possibly a duplicate for Sir Humphrey Stafford, Knight husband of of Elizabeth Maltravers. Or could this Elizabeth Maltravers really suppose to be Elizabeth (Dunham) Maltravers.
Possibly the Dunham Book has errors, I have not been able to find information about Humphrey Stafford husband of Elizabeth Dunham, heiress of the Dynhams of Hooke being the son of Ralph Stafford (son of Edmund) any where else other than the Dunham Book.

I have found some other information about Benedicta Foljambe on History of Parliament Online & http://kateemersonhistoricals.com/TudorWomenF.htm which just confuses it even more. I have posted what I have found on the Profiles.

HOP has Benedicta, da. of Sir Godfrey Foljambe, wid, of Sir John Dunham (d.1535) of Kirklington was 2nd wife of William Newenham.

I think the supposed husbands were John Dunham & William Needham/Newenham?

Apparently the suggestion that the Stafford archbishop was illegitimate was contemporary scuttlebutt with no supporting evidence, and his mother was Elizabeth Dunham by her husband Humphrey "of the silver hand" Stafford, with Dunham's first husband being John Maltravers. (Which one?)

Yet the Elizabeth who married Maltravers & Stafford is more often seen as Elizabeth d' Aumarle, daughter of Sir William d' Aumarle.

We need to chase the property.

thank you gyes/galls for looking into the ladyQ.?

what was your conclusion?

T.

hello gyes thought i would post up a couple of link for you in case you knew anyone working on either of these two family's that are related to the Foljambes within my period of interest i will be looking them over myself but someone may have already done so, as ever these are very local family's and places to me in derbyshire and south yorkshire- scarily so

Eyre-

http://www.rotherhamweb.co.uk/genealogy/eyre1.htm

Furnival-
http://www.rotherhamweb.co.uk/genealogy/furnival.htm

Robert le Eyre
is it him?

Hi Trevor Lilley

You were quite right & the Benedicta 1299 seems most unlikely so she's been changed to "unknown."

Now I'm stuck on the Dunham connection with contradictory sources.

"Bill" Irwin-

Robert le Eyres grandfather William could indeed be the father of the catherine/Katherine on my Foljambe tree 9tom the 3rd). the dates are very close and the location is certain. i know those hills and valleys very well.

im not of the Eyre family, im researching medieval connections and local family's of the early 14th century around Chesterfield and south Sheffield. if there is someone out there interested in this or this family id like to hear from you (im not a PRO member so i cant make changes and i have no idea how to merge and all that stuff. i have been building on paper and writings up my findings on paper/PC.

http://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000002930966417

i was researching the lordship of Hallam (sheffield) and several related family's ready to put on Geni ar Ralph de Ecclesall husband of a ???Furnival (very close in time to my foljambe/furnival still not sure shes is in the right place but close for sure she can only be one of 2 or 3 people). i always try to get my details from sources failing that the author quotes a source which i can check.

BUT

i have found lots of contradictions on the Furnival tree, people giving birth to themselves and the wife, odd bods, and a whole generation missing in the de Furnival family tree on here. iv contacted to site managers but other than building it myself from scratch im at a loss.

this is a gold mine-
http://www.rotherhamweb.co.uk/genealogy/furnival.htm

Private User Over here to reconnect Elizabeth Dunham, heiress of the Dynhams of Hooke

Here’s a Wikipedia page to help orient the Staffords

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humphrey_Stafford,_1st_Earl_of_Devon

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/330837/did-humphrey-stafford-i-have-th...

Best answer
Of the 3 sources (not counting the ancestry.com family trees) currently cited on the profile for Humphrey Stafford, it is Burke's that calls Elizabeth the daughter and heir of Dynham, but they appear to confuse two of the Humphrey Staffords, and in any case Burke's volumes are fairly untrustworthy sources, particularly for this time period or earlier.

The other source linked to in full-text Rogers, The Strife of the Roses etc, does give Elizabeth Aumarle as Humphrey's second wife, but doesn't appear to cite any sources for that information. Though it looks like it may have been copied in Humphrey's biography.

I don't have a copy of the Richardson volume but there is a discussion of Humphrey and his wives in the soc.genealogy.medieval list where Richardson quotes his own work. Unfortunately he also doesn't actually cite which source relates to which fact, but he does have a reference list, and it might be worthwhile having a look at those to find what the actual original source is for Elizabeth having the maiden name of Aumarle?

This is the Rootsweb link to this discussion

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-07/...

Here is some history for Humphrey Stafford and Elizabeth Dynham (aka Dunham).

https://books.google.com/books?id=8TUvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA541&lpg...

"The Dormant and Extinct Baronage of England, Vol. II" by Thomas Christopher Banks, p. 541 (1808)

Humphrey Stafford with the silver hand; who married Elizabeth [Dynham, aka "Dunham"], daughter and heir of Dynham, widow of Sir John Maltravers, of Hooke, in co[unty]. Dors[et]. and dying the 1st of Henry V. left issue several sons;

whereof John, the second, was born at Hooke, educated at Oxford, was afterwards bishop of Bath and Wells, and at length archbishop of Canterbury:

but HUMPHREY, the eldest, was successor to his father; and in the 8th of Henry IV. having married Elizabeth [Maltravers], the daughter, and afterwards sole heir, of Sir John Maltravers, of Hooke, knight, doing his fealty, had livery of the lands of her inheritance, whereof the manor of Hooke was the chief.

And dying the 20th of Henry VI. left Humphrey, his grandson and heir; viz. son of Sir John Stafford, knight, his eldest son, who died in his lifetime, by Anne, daughter of William lord Botreaux, his wife.

Which HUMPHREY, the 30th of Henry VI. being then a knight, was slain by the rebels under Jack Cade, at Sevenoak, in Kent, leaving

another HUMPHREY, his son and heir; who, the 1st of Edward IV. had a grant from the king of the stewardship of the dutchy of Cornwall for life; but died the 1st of August the same year without issue,

leaving Humphrey Stafford, of Suthwike, his next heir; viz. son of William, brother to John, grandfather of him the said deceased.
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So from this I the names of two of Elizabeth's sons with Humphrey "Silver Hand" Stafford. Additionally there are mentioned a number of grandsons and g-grandsons for the same couple.

Also apparently their eldest son, Humphrey (Silver Hand's father was also Humphrey by the way) -- married his step-sister (most likely, although a very slim chance she was his half sister) from his mother's first marriage. There isn't much given here for John Maltravers, Elizabeth Dynham's first husband.
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While I'm here, I have seen post mortem inquisitions mentioning Benedicta Dunham (b. 1499), as wife of Sir John Dunham of Kyrtelington; and I believe her maiden name was probably Folgham.

However I think Richardson et al has corrected Burke’s and the consensus now seems to be that the Dynham heiress didn’t exist. Please check my understanding.

Have no idea what that means, because it is obvious from "Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem: Volume 19, Henry IV" that the DYNHAM, MALTRAVERS, and HUMPHREY STAFFORD families intermarried during that time frame. The three surnames share space on the same official documents specifying their heirs and bequests.

So I wonder what you mean by "didn't exist". And who is "Richardson et al"? Are they published? If so, where?
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50 MAUD [Maltravers] WIFE OF JOHN DYNHAM, KNIGHT Writ 18 May 1406. SOMERSET.

Inquisition. Crewkerne, 12 June.

She held in her demesne as of fee 6s.8d. rent from a half toft and 36 a. arable and meadow in Highbrooks by Somerton with the reversion of the half toft and 36 a. after the deaths of John Sutton, Joan his wife, and John and Richard their sons, all of whom are still living and hold for the term of their lives.

Owing to the death of John Mautravers, father of Maud, who held of the king in chief by knight service, this rent, being her portion as one of the daughters and heirs of John Mautravers, was taken into the king’s hands and so remains.

She died about 1 Nov. 1402. **ELIZABETH**, the other daughter of John Mautravers, who married HUMPHREY DE STAFFORD, junior, knight, is HER [sister, Maud Dynham's] HEIR, aged 22 years and more.

Since her [Maud (Maltravers) DYNHAM'S] death the rent has come to the king by the escheator owing to her minority and the partition of the inheritance.

So, Erica Howton, what I get from these official court records is that the wife of Sir Humphrey Stafford, Jr. (aka "Silver Hand", unless she married Silver Hand's son Humphrey) -- was actually Elizabeth Maltravers, sister of Maud (Maltravers) Dynham. So technically she WAS "the Dynham heiress". But she was NOT a "Dunham". She was the daughter (not "widow") of John Maltravers.

Erica, thank you for challenging my genealogical skills, I learn a lot that way. :D
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There is much more to be gleaned from the same record book, about all three families: Maltravers, Dynham, and Stafford.

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol19/pp1-13

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol19/pp467-478

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol19/pp414-418

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol19/pp447-453

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol19

“ ... daughter (not "widow") of John Maltravers....” could very well be it!

Try this whole discussion in context.

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/330837/did-humphrey-stafford-i-have-th...

So - was Sir Humphrey Stafford, Knight “the Silver Hand” ?

How do we best correct & connect this tree?

Elizabeth Dunham, heiress of the Dynhams of Hooke

Elizabeth (Maltravers) Stafford, the "heiress of Dynham" and her husband were alive as late as 1412, according to records from the book I referenced above. There were many Humphrey Staffords, and only one was known as "Silver Hand". The dates on all of them could probably use some fine-tuning.

Burial records inform us that at least two Humphrey Staffords were buried at Abbotsbury Abbey in Dorset (as I recall they were married in Dorset). One her husband, and one her father-in-law. Her father and mother are also apparently buried there as well.

I would rather use all the following sources as *leads, than to choose one over another or dismiss both out of hand. They all contain some substance, although as always we have to watch out for errors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbotsbury_Abbey (lists them as burials and mentions the name of Elizabeth). Also lists her father, Sir John Maltravers as a burial there.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/111362226/humphrey-stafford (lists them as burials, lists Elizabeth Maltravers as the wife of one of them and as another burial at the same abbey). Lists Elizabeth d'Aumarle Maltravers as the wife of the other Humphry Stafford. Her father (Sir John Maltravers) is also listed on this site as a burial in the same cemetery.

So the two grave memorial sources are fairly consistent with one another, once we realize how easy it is to confuse the two generations of Elizabeth Maltravers (wife and daughter) who married two generations (father and son) of Humphrey Staffords.
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Erica Howton , in "The Dormant and Extinct Baronage of England" there are extensive succession charts for the Barony of Stafford, however Elizabeth Maltravers (whose mother was Elizabeth Aumarle, by the way) married into the Staffords of Hooke and Suthwike, which chart is shown on page 524 (p. 621 of the pdf).

She and her mother (who actually married her husband's father as one of his wives :D) are both shown on that chart, and her husband is identified as the son of Silver Hand (one of her mother's husbands). So:

Sir Humphrey Stafford "Silver Hand" (died 1st Henry V or ca. 1413-14) m. Elizabeth Aumarle, widow of Sir John Maltravers;

and his son and heir:

Sir Humphrey Stafford (died 20th Henry VI or ca. 1442-43) m. (in Dorset, as mentioned elsewhere in the same book) Elizabeth Maltravers.

Unfortunately, the author of this book also confused the mother and daughter as well, because as I proved above with court documents it was actually the daughter of Sir John Maltravers who was "heiress of [Maud (Maltravers) de la Mare] Dynham".

The author gives a brief Stafford family history beginning on page 541 (p. 618 of the pdf).

Also in this same book, interestingly enough is a very detailed history of the Maltravers family, despite the fact that they held no barony that I'm aware of. It begins of page 333 (p. 402 of the pdf), with a very nice chart for the Maltravers on page 336 (p. 405 of the pdf). On this chart are all of the Elizabeths in question, along with Humphrey Stafford (son of Silver Hand, according to this author) -- and -- her sister Matilda ("Maud" Dynham).

https://books.google.com/books?id=8TUvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA541&lpg...

https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2489413/memorial-search#srp-top

Findagrave lists 15 interments at the Abbotsbury Abbey, and if I were a manager of any of the profiles in question, I would consider checking into their records as well. Might be able to find marriages and births, etc.

Your interest was the Dunham family, so let me know what needs correction in that area / hook up. I think the existing MPs / tree curated by Charlene are accurate, I’d just like to ID “silver hand””, as that’s an anchor.

Thanks. Although it took me some time to discover the facts surrounding Elizabeth Dunham, heiress of the Dynhams of Hooke (erroneously surnamed "Dunham" and presented as the daughter of one Robert Dunham , my conclusion agrees with Burke with respect to:

Sir Humphrey "Silver Hand" Stafford died 1413, and m. Elizabeth (d'Aumale) Maltravers, the WIDOW of Sir John Maltravers.

...and "Silver Hand's" son,

Sir Humphrey Stafford (aka "Jr.") m. Elizabeth Maltravers -- the DAUGHTER of Sir John Maltravers (same man).

(And I see that Burke also conveniently provided a list of the children of the younger Stafford couple, which is nice).

Where I disagree, is 1. the "heiress of Dynham" DID "exist". and 2. the "heiress of Dynham" was the sister of Maud (Maltravers) Dynham. Burke described her as the SOLE heir of Sir John Maltravers, her father.

Furthermore, they're buried in Dorset, where they were also married.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_general_and_heraldic_diction... (page 492, right-hand column; p. 511 of the pdf).

https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/8TUvAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol19

https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_general_and_heraldic_diction...

The Maltravers family pedigree chart on p. 336 of "The Dormant and Extinct Baronage of England", along with "Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem: Volume 19, Henry IV", Burkes' "A general and heraldic dictionary of the peerages of England, Ireland, and Scotland, extinct, dormant, and in abeyance.", and burial records for Abbotsbury Abbey -- taken together, corroborates the TRUE identity of "The Heiress of Dynham".

She did in fact "exist", according to various sources, including court documents, cited above.

Her maiden name was Maltravers, not "Dunham".

Her mother, Elizabeth d'Aumale, widow of Sir John Maltravers, married secondly "Silver Hand", and his son Humphrey "Jr." was her one and only husband.

She was the daughter of Sir John Maltravers, not of "Robert Dunham".

UNLESS, the profile in question was MISlabeled "Heiress of Dynham"). In which case she might have been some Elizabeth Dunham -- completely unrelated to the "Heiress of Dynham" -- who just happened to marry one of the many other Humphrey Staffords.

Looking at the succession charts and other histories we know that some Humphrey Staffords were brothers, uncles, or nephews, rather than father-son descendants. And some Humphrey Staffords may not have been included in the line of succession, either.

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This all started when I reported some crazy merges between three Dunham men, with this "Heiress of Dynham". Omg. Look what I got into. :D

"Debra Denman Over here to reconnect Elizabeth Dunham, heiress of the Dynhams of Hooke"

No can do, sorry.