William Lee, of Ulster - Mismerged into Lee/Constable line

The parents seem to be the parents of a William Lee of Virginia. Private User, don't you agree?

If he is tagged as "of Ulster," there is little likelihood that he is related to the Lees of Virginia, who descended from a Shropshire family, and from neighboring shires.

The title of this discussion is "mismerged" but I could not find any merges. Have they already been undone.

Right, I believe that the parents of of William of Virginia (Felton is very familiar to me).

Alice Lee

An MP, curated by Private User, seems to be the same person as the mother of William Lee, of Ulster is my point. Or was last night when I first looked.

Unknown Profile

That's where it goes wrong - she was the wife of William "Constable" Lee, who was most definitely NOT born in Ulster. And *neither one* was a parent of any William Lee/Leigh born in Ulster.

It also now looks as though William Lee/Leigh of Armagh is yet another different person. Considering how common both names are, this should not be a surprise.

William "of Ulster" needs to be split off from at least Alice Felton, if not both parents - I don't have any further information on that aspect.

Here's another profile of the Dorothy Lee married to William Lee and a large tree of descendants. The ancestors of this tree seem suspicious (few dates, some iffy given names), but the tree looks like a tree of a member who is a descendant.

Dorothy Croucher

I detached William from William and Alice Fenton. Shall I merge Dorothy with her duplicate?

*That* tree is questionable pastward of William Lee, Mag. Gen. - he goes from Ulster (again) to NC. (By the way, "County Derry" is one of those interesting geopolitical situations - the Irish call it Derry, but the North Irish and the British refer to it as Londonderry.)

This whole knotty question is going to require tons more research with a highly skeptical mind - people *will* keep trying to latch onto the Richard Lee/Anne Constable line because Gen. Robert E. Lee. :-P

Yes I have a close friend from Derry. I will leave the question of whether these are the same Dorothy Lee (Taylor) to those of you who are experts in Southern genealogy. It must be it seemed to me and we want to merge duplicate trees in, even erroneous ones.

I'm not a big proponent of locked profiles, but I have locked several of the historic Lees to slow down the bad merges.

The original Lee family produced many offspring in Virginia. Many people are legitimately related, but so many more want the connection to one of the most famous First Families of Virginia.

I'm in the middle of another muddle in the Starnes family [Frederick Starnes, Jr. - disputes as to who fathered which chlden], so as you are already researching, Maven, I will let you continue. If you need me to look at anything related to the Virginia Lees, tag me in the discussion or send me an inbox message.

The really explosive question is the descendants of William "Constable" Lee (the guy who married Alice Felton/Fenton). There is still intense debate over whether he had male-line descendants down to the present day, or whether his line daughtered out and a different William Lee got fingered (times 11 and counting) as Founding Ancestor.

I'm working with the latter hypothesis, pending incontrovertible documentation one way or the other.

What the Y-DNA evidence says, explicitly, is that the William Lee who has 11+ lines of male descent is not related to THE Lees, no way, nohow, not in 10,000 years or more. So he's "The Other" William Lee. :-)

THE Lees have an extremely rare variant of the uncommon I1a haplotype, which to date has only been found in incontrovertibly documented descendants.

Some other Lee families/groupings are also I1/I1a and may, or may not, be very distant collateral relatives (the James Lee/Leighs of Bath, NC, the descendants of Sir John Lea, the Jehu Lees, the John Lees of Nansemond, etc) - but the most recent connection would probably be somewhere around the time of Charlemagne, or even further back.

John Lee of Nansemond, incidentally, holds the current record for "most prolific ancestor" - about 40 lines of descent and counting. Many of the Lees across the Southeast and beyond are actually his descendants.

The Abel Lees are Type G/G2a (the Richard III haplotype, although it is unlikely they are related to him).

The Josiah Lees of MD (and some isolates) are type I2b1 (the William Ross of Westerly, RI haplotype - also probably unrelated).

The Thomas Lees, and the not-closely-related Thomas Lee/Leas, are R1a.

The extremely common R1b haplotypes are represented by the James Lees of Frederick MD, the James Lees of Claiborne Parish LA, the John Lee/de Leas of Pimhill UK, the Alfred Lea/Lees, the Bryan Lees, the Hugh Lees, the John Lees of Goochland VA, the John Lees of Johnston SC, the Josiah Lees of New Madrid MO, "The Other" William Lee (called William Lee of Richmond, although the identification is not conclusive), the William Leighs of Armagh, the Zachariah Lees of Rockingham Co VA, and sundry outliers. None of these groups are closely related.

There are also outliers representing haplotypes B, E1b, E3a, I2a (the John G. Lees of Patrick Co VA), J/J2, O3, and Unclassified.

The Lee DNA Surname Project has a beautifully sortable chart which lays all this out for anyone who really wants to know: http://leedna.com/dnaresults.php?sort=2

The discussions on these message board is interesting and useful. But confusing. Let me see if I understand this correctly:

My wife’s ggggrandfather was Lafayette Lee (b 1825). His grandfather was Charles Lee of Orange (b 1706). There does not seem to be any controversy there.

The question is whether Charles’ parents are William Lee of Richmond (descended from William Lee/Alice Fenton) and Dorothy Taylor. And even if his parents are named William/Dorothy, they may be a totally different William/Dorothy.

The OVERVIEW of this page stated clearly that its the latter.

BUT the discussion about it here (William Lee) especially the discussion on 9/14/13 seems to come to the opposite conclusion.

ALSO I think Judy Kellar Fox also finds the connection in "Documents and DNA identify a little-known Lee family in Virginia.” (http://media.geni.com/p13/f6/a8/39/5b/5344483d283b441d/lee_s_of_ora...

LASTLY the discussion thread here (http://genealogyforum.leesofvirginia.org/user/discussion.aspx?id=31...) is unequivocal about the connection.

I am curious as to the latest thinking. I suspect I am walking into a minefield here but I am not trying to PROVE any kind of connection to Lees, famous or otherwise, just trying to sort out the facts best I can.

Does anyone have advice?

Thank you in advance

Robert Puentes

Private User Private User

Robert, you not only walked into a minefield, you set off a ticking bomb.

Jacqueli Charlene Finley IS the difficulty. She insists that the profile she calls "William Lee, of Richmond" is the son of William Constable Lee and the grandson of Richard Lee, founder of THE Lees. (He's her direct ancestor, and she is deeply invested in this identification.)

If she is correct, this means that he *cannot* be the same person as the one Leedna.com calls "William Lee, of Richmond" - because THAT William Lee isn't even in, or anywhere remotely near, the same Y-DNA haplogroup. He has 12 lines (at last count) converging on him, so the possibility of error is extremely small.

She will not tolerate being told that she *might* be wrong, and gets extremely nasty about it.

For the sake of harmony, it has been assumed that William Lee and William Lee, of Ulster & Richmond are two different people with some coincidental similarities in their family trees.

It's safest to leave it at that, publicly at least.

I have not, or do not, intend to join into this "mine field", mainly because Maven seems to like to "bait" me in several of her defamation of character rants about me ... so I have decided to just let her rant and rave as Maven seems to like to appoint herself the authoritative person here on Geni, and what she says has to be the way it is. Of course, I have invested time and energy in being identified with my ancestors - isn't that the point of Geni and genealogy? But again - Maven makes this statement as if I am a bad person for doing so. I have not made any comments on this discussion but have been labeled a problem. <sigh> as many of those with agendas have done. Genealogy is suppose to be a positive experience, and I bow out now, as I have done in the past, from such negative people as Maven, that bring only hostility to what should be an adventure to the past. Being so full of yourself is not an attractive trait, and as for many of the Y-DNA findings from the Lee groups - some were incorrect, as we are now finding out. Keeping an open mind to getting it right, the lineage, should be the goal - I totally agree, but it needs to be done VERY carefully, as many names, dates, children, locations, for the earliest of colonial Lee's have been confused and integrated in error. For the most part - I stand by my work, and documentation (including land and legal paper trails) that trump the DNA - any and all times - because there are too many variables that can cloud that information, especially when they test the wrong line to the wrong Lee. Maven, I will not get into a feud with you or any one else, but I would suggest that you stop defamation of my character as you do on this social media as you have been doing. I know that I have become a thorn to many sides out there who have issues with correcting lineages that needed correcting. Remember too, I started this all so long ago without the benefits of genealogy websites, internet, and DNA. As you are aware, many of the controversial lineages and corrections that outraged many because individuals like myself insisted were wrong and needed correcting, are now being corrected because of new findings, both through DNA and documentation (or finding remains in parking lots). The only problems I see are those created by negative people who are just nasty and unhappy inside themselves, unfortunately. Cyber bullying has no place on Geni, or on any other genealogy websites. I hope the rest of you agree. Most of you do wonderful work and are helpful to so many searching for their roots, without all this unnecessary drama. Thank you, and God Bless.

And to add one more point - if William Lee and Alice did not have a male line, I would not exist. I think it may be important Maven, if you read the book by one of my great aunts from this line. It is called "Threads of Gold" by Myrtie Lee Powers. If you follow the book carefully, and pay attention to the details, you can trace the relationships in the genealogy and history there. This is a biography on one of the direct lines from William and Alice, that can be found also in the Library of Congress under Lee Genealogy (along with the book Lee of Virginia btw). http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/005731333

http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/005731333

Re: Dorothy Taylor and William Lee:

http://www.amazon.com/Abraham-Lincolns-Hanks-Family-Genealogy/dp/14...

Vicky came out with her 2nd volume and addressed William Lee and Dorothy Taylor.

And as I am seeing, the confusion is being on William Lee from Ulster is being created by Maven.

In 2013, there was a discussion on her confusion on the 2 Willaim's that involved Vicky Paulson and I - http://www.geni.com/discussions/128133?msg=902366 - so maybe this has been a point of contention for Maven, and she may not want to let it go. But the Willaim Lee that married Dorothy Taylor, from my tree, was the grandson of Richard Lee, son of William Lee and Alice.

As you can also see on the previous discussion, Vicky and I addressed Maven then on her attempt to confuse the William's (which is easy to do, an can be a successful ploy to confuse everyone). To clarify, here is the statement on this matter, per Vicky, addressing Maven's "attack" on me back then ...

Between vicky paulson and Jacqueli Finley

Reply
Forward
Delete
Mute
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x

x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x

vicky paulson

Today at 5:35 AM

"I'm not sure who Maven is, but I can address the subject. The DNA tests, now 10 years old, were on descendants of Charles Lee, who married Ann Dabbs, and descendants of a Capt. John Lee. Neither are found as descendants of William Lee, so they only prove they are not Lee desendants, form the "famous" Lee tree, and prove nothing, concerning William Lee. If you go to Family Tree DNA, you will see the correct descendants have been tested, and ARE related. I went back to Ann Lee Hanks, returning to Rockingham, after the death of Joseph Hanks. Rockingham was taken from Orange County, and bingo, found William's descendants. You really have to study the histories of these counties, to find people! I then went to Richmond, and the county they were suppose to be in, and found marriage licenses, and christenings at North Farnham Parish, and very clearly see Charles Lee married Jane! How did they get there? Went to Edmond Jennings 2nd book, or as the Society called it, his renditions, and when the three boys of William I sued Richard, the Scholar, to regain their inheritance, he gave them property and money. The property is from Richard Lee the Immigrant's first property, by Paradise, which then would be located in Richmond County, by North Farnham Parish. The Hanks and Lee's were neighbors there. Both the Lee's and Hanks moved to the Northern Banks, after the Indian uprising. Some of the issues arise by interchanging Feldon, with Felton, as you can find both families existed. Alice Felton was a widow, and Mary was born 3 years before her marriage to William Lee. Richard the Scholar would have reason to sue, as she was not a Lee, as would the Society's rejection of her descendants. Dorothy Taylor's 2 children also adopted the Lee surname. One has to realize these facts, for proper DNA testing. William's son, John, was not a Capt., in any branch of service. William and Dorothy Taylor Lee's son did serve in the Army, and died as a private, and was buried by his surgeon, and is recorded in the Revolutionary War records. so whoever this Capt. John Lee was, he wasn't any relative of William Lee!"

That is all from me, lest I become the shrew that Maven and other's are claiming me to be because I stand up for myself and do not like bullies.

Robert, are you happy now that you have triggered all-out thermonuclear war?

Maven,

It is not a war - I will leave it alone. I just did not appreciate you saying that I said or did something that was not true. I am not perfect, but I did work extremely hard on my ancestry and lineage, and I think Geni is a great site, unfortunately it gets abused at times. I do have a right to have a say without it being labeled an "all-out thermonuclear war".

Thank you.

Jacqueli, if you insist on denying the validity of Y-DNA research, you are doing no one but yourself any favors.

I very carefully set up a distinction between "William Lee of Ulster", who IS NOT related to the Stratford Hall Lees (but IS the same person that leedna.com calls "William Lee of Richmond") and the person YOU claim is "the real" William Lee of Richmond. And then I let your line, and you, strictly alone.

You have just insisted on smashing down that wall of separation and publicly called me a liar, as well as other nasty and uncalled-for names.

This source http://media.geni.com/p13/f6/a8/39/5b/5344483d283b441d/lee_s_of_ora... uses both traditional documentation and modern Y-DNA research to identify Charles Lee of Orange County (the Charles Lee whom you refer to as marrying "Jane"), his descendants, his collateral relatives, and his ancestors.

You CANNOT use him as "proof" of anything to do with the Stratford Hall Lee line, because *he is not a Stratford Hall Lee either*. He exactly matches leedna.com's "William Lee of Richmond" and the 11 other R1b lines of descendants that stem from him.

The Stratford Hall Lees are a very specific sub-variant of haplotype I1a, found *only* in solidly documented descendants of Richard Lee and Anne Constable.

That great a discrepancy means that there is *zero* chance of *any* male-line relationship within 100 generations or more.

On paper the five male-line Somersets were direct-line descendants of John of Gaunt and collateral relatives of Richard III. In the laboratory one of them was not even related to the other four, and *none* of them are related to Richard III through the male line at all.

Still want to insist that ONLY paper documentation matters?

After three screens of belligerent nonsense, I am not going to accept your "no-pology" and I am not going to let it drop this time.

Too little, and much too late.

Well, I wish there weren't bad feelings but - yes - this is all very useful. I will continue to plug away and thank you for all the details and your time.

Hello all, i wanted to provide some details on William Lee abt 1701 and Jane from Derry, Ulster, Ireland for which I'm a direct male descendant. His son William Lee settled in North Carolina and later married Susanna Pike (both were Quakers).

Though the Stratford Hall Lee's and this lee family are from the same haplogroup I1 there most recent common ancestor would date back to William the Conquerer (1066) based current DNA information.

The source is available here:
http://leedna.com/dnaresults.php?id=357

There do seem to be several loosely grouped Lee families in the I-M253 haplotype, who *may* have had a common ancestor somewhere way, way back (anywhere between Charlemagne and King John, at a rough guess). See previous post....

Any Ulsterman with an I haplotype probably has either a Norseman or a Norman (or possibly both) somewhere way back in his family tree. By faar the most common haplotype in Ireland is R.