Harman Jansz - Birth date

Alex Moes,
I can't decipher the document so that it makes any sense. I can only read, 1845, 8 april, a few other partial dates, Aucke Jansz and Magdalena Pie..rs. Staring at it awhile doesn't help me at all :-)

(The spelling of Leysebet is probably wrong. Her name would have been Elisabeth and her nickname something like Liesabet/Liesabeth)

I've messaged you elsewhere but if eyes fall on this here, all the better:
http://17thcenturyhollanders.pbworks.com/w/page/60950000/Auke%20Jan...
re: parents of Aucke etc.

tag Goosen Jansz van Nuys and also Private User

Private User what is your opinion?

I believe i have read that article previously but i dont seem to have eer taken the time to link it, not sure if that is a suggestion that last time i dismissed it?

Reading it thru again her evidence seems to hinge on the witness at the baptism of Aucke's first son, Jan, who is named as Jan Aukes. I can't think of an arguement against this being the child's namesake paternal grandfather. If this is the case then clearly this Jan Auckes cannot be the same person as Jan Goosens (husband of Ebelken who is currently shown as Auke's father on Geni)

another small piece of circumstantial evidence is Aucke Jansz and Goosen Jansz's relative ages (as per their marriage records). Aucke is the elder son (admittedly we don't know for sure if he is the eldest), if he is named for the paternal grandfather then this would make their father's father's name Aucke which would mean their father's name would be Jan Auckes rather than Jan Goosens.

This ties in with the theory that the witness at the baptism of Aucke's eldest son is in fact the paternal grandfather.

Eligio Gael Rodriguez Diaz I would be curious to hear your opinions, to summarize the previous two pages I think that Aucke Jans and Goosen Jans are not sons of Jan Goossens so need to be disconnected from their current parents and brothers shown on Geni.
The evidence points to their father being a Jan Aukes about whom we know nothing more than a name and an assumed death date c1653, possibly in Amsterdam.
The only argument against the disconnection is that this is a very well researched family and that the parents of Aucke and Goosen are almost always recorded as Geni currently shows them.

I greatly appreciate my opinion being considered, though, let me be clear, I don’t have the qualified credentials.

This is a widely researched family. And not only recently. Very WELL RENOWNED GENEALOGISTS have abounded in this particular branch. I could cite big respectful names, but you probably know more than I do.

Even they didn’t quote in each profile their sources or conclusions; we can accept they “did their homework”. I am not saying they cannot be wrong somewhere, but I doubt they were all wrong in the same spot. Nowadays is easy to compare, consult and even copy the work of other researchers, but in ancestral times this was not as feasible. I don’t believe they all copied an originally mistakened source.

On the other hand. the alluded work of Elizabeth Johnson
http://17thcenturyhollanders.pbworks.com/w/page/60950000/Auke%20Jan...
has many assumptions, many of them convince me, but not them all. The problem here is that it is a chain of assumptions leading to a conclusion. Accepting them all disqualify the ancestral work of other researchers.
She claims that before January 2012 these documents were almost inaccessible, which is wrong. In ancestral days researchers consulted personally the archives. There was no internet. I personally have an “Untitled lineage of Aucke Janz van Nuys” (already uploaded in Geni) which typewritten copy was made before 1960 (handwritten dated note of equivalence to 1960’s dollars). The original manuscript should be much older. There, it states as the source for Aucke’s marriage: “Municipal Archives, Amsterdam”

In conclusion. I wouldn’t go so lightly disregarding the work of ancestral pre-internet genealogists.

In researching colonial NY i have found the opposite, one researcher determines a "fact" and writes it into a book then for the next 300 years everyone who writes a book on the same subject regurgitates the same "fact" because XYZ published it years ago.

Joris Rapalje is a classic example of this.

I really dont see a chain of assumptions in her work, I cannot remember why I first came to doubt Aucke's current parents but clearly the fact that she agrees with me will affect my opinion of her slightly.

The idea that Jan Auckes, the witness at the baptism, is Auckes father is indeed an almost unverifiable guess but that guess/assumption does not count against the consideration that Auckes current parents are wrong. The rest of her assumptions seem to be around the identities of the other baptismal witnesses and as there is not doubt that these baptisms are of Aucke's children then her conclusions of who the witnesses are seem highly likely to be valid.

The great benefit of the internet age to genealogy is not that we can now view records from anywhere without having to sit down with an old book, the break through is the transcriptions and databases with allow us to search those old books in seconds without having to turn every page and scan every entry. Pre-internet determining that Albert Jans and Magdalena Jans had no other children than Annetje and no marriage record would be a work of days if not weeks physically sitting in Amsterdam, now it takes a minute or two from your own home.

I have just reverted Aucke Jansz DOB from 1612 to 1622, this means that Goosen is the elder brother so reduces the likelihood that their grandfather's name was Aucke.

I have just noticed:

"Ebelken was born about 1578 in Borkem, a German North Sea Island; daughter of Herman Jeus. (Centraal Bureau voor Genealogie, The Hague, Netherlands).

Source: Untitled lineage of Aucke Janz van Nuys (C. 1621-1698), unknown author, privately printed circa 1950, transcribed by Eligio Gael Rodriguez, May 2016."

It isn't specifically stated but i am guessing that the name Herman Jeus MIGHT be sourced from the banns of Jan and Ebelken: https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000028936012901&

This is of interest because "Jeus" is one of the oldest name variants used by unlce Benning Wyma;

inschrijvingsdatum:
23-05-1620
naam bruidegom:
Jeus, Benningh
naam bruid:
Asijs, Maijke
naam bruid:
Asict, Maijke
bronverwijzing:
DTB 424, p.243
opmerkingen:
Huwelijksintekeningen van de KERK.

Mmhh.. I have to apologize Alex Moes. I have been away of this particular branch for several months.

I was too eager to respond to your request of opinion and didn’t take the time to previously retake familiarity with the branch.

I have been reviewing the works of PatriciaA.Wardell, Carrie B. Allen, Teunis G. Bergen, and John Jay Jenkins, only to find out I cannot see where did Aucke’s parents came out from.
It seems I have been trying to speak out for sources that are not.
None of the above go further back than Aucke, including my own personal notes and files.

As for the birth date of Aucke, 1622 is coincident with my research.

Saludos, Gael

The only trustable mention I find for Aucke's parents is in the "Untitled lineage of Aucke Janz van Nuys" quoted before:

AUCKE JANSZ was probably born 1622 in Nuys, Groningen Province, Netnerlands, the son of Jan Goosens and Ebelken Hermans. Jan Goossens was born about 1581 in Dokkum, Friesland and was a cloth shearer when he married Ebelken Hermans at Amsterdam 24 December 1606. Ebelken was born about 1578 in Borkem, a German North Sea Island; daughter of Herman Jeus. (Centraal Bureau voor Genealogie, The Hague, Netherlands).

I have never seen personally the documents of the quoted source (Centraal Bureau voor Genealogie)

Gael, the documents supporting the above statements are all connected to the appropriate profiles (your welcome).

Breaking down the sentence:
Auckes' age and origin come from his marriage banns: https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000028997184121&

The fact that his parents were Jan and Ebelken comes from: ???

Jan and Ebelkens' age and origin come from their marriage banns: https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000028936012901&

The fact that Ebelkens' father was Herman Jeus might be recorded in the marriage banns, they are very hard to decipher but the fourth and fifth words of the fifth line could be "Herman Jeus".

So that quote tells us several things that we already know and includes a statement of fact "... the son of Jan Goosens and Ebelken Hermans ..." of which no one can present any evidence.

The fact that Aucke van NUYS (and Goosen) are from Nuis makes it even less logical that this couple would be their parents. Jan and Ebelken are from Friesland, they move south to the thriving metropolis Amsterdam in North Holland, get married and have children. Why would they be in a tiny village in Groningen 3 years later when Goosen van Nuys is born?

https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/Borkum,+Germany/Dokkum,+Netherla...

Nuis is so small it does not even have a wikipedia page in English https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuis_(dorp) , current pop. approx 680, historically significant facts: oldest footpath in the Netherlands.

Alex, thanks for connecting the documents to all profiles.
I had written in the “About” section all the information there is of each person in the whole document, but now it is properly supported. Thanks again.

When you break down the sentence, you are trying to validate the facts with the now available (online or uploaded) record and registration documents, which are currently our trusted sources for validation purposes.
But we don’t really know in which sources old researchers relied on. There is a mix of them; family bibles; oral transmission; municipal and church archives, etc. Some of these original sources are unknown to us, some others are now probably lost or misplaced.

Not being able to validate a fact should not be enough for rejection. There must be a clear and relevant inconsistency to be refused. Don’t think I am a “disconnections enemy”. I am not. I personally promoted the disconnection of a branch of my own tree, probably the largest one (Juliana Morton) There was an invalid gap which sadly I have not been able to fill and reconnect that branch.

As for the travelling of Jan and Ebelken, I don’t see it that illogical. They were from different towns up-north Netherlands and married in Amsterdam. Groningen (Nuis) is between. It’s not that odd. And the distance is relatively short (80 miles straight line).

Perhaps they preferred smaller towns. They even might have lived in Leiden, close to Amsterdam. There is a burial record that COULD BE the one of Harman Jansz, who died infant.
https://www.wiewaswie.nl/en/search/search-results/record-details/a2...
I have not been able to see the original. It could have useful data.

Uups… I went too extensive.
Saludos, Gael

I uploaded a document that will be of your interest.
Pitcher-Okie-Thompson Ancestry
https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000048343337040&

You will find Jan and Ebelken at midpage, on the right.

I tried to tag all the profiles that appear in this chart, but couldn't add more tan 8 or 9.
Is it the system that doesn't allow more?

Why is that of interest? Without knowing more about the manuscript that it is lifted from it is as trustworthy as a MyHeritage web tree.

Actually, because of it's layout I cannot tell if it is saying Aucke is from Nuis (i concur) or if it is saying Jan and Ebelken are from Nuis (we know they are not).

WieWasWie is not functioning at the moment, i can see that there is a burial in Leiden 1615 for a Harman Jansz, is that the one you are point me towards? IF that is the child of Jan&Ebelken it will practically prove that they are not parents of Goosen (born 1614 in Nuis).

I have started a new discussion with a more relevant title, perhaps it will not engage more users at present but in the future it might be more obvious a space for this debate:

https://www.geni.com/discussions/161395

The burial date for this WieWasWie Harman Jansz is not 1615. Is October 24, 1612. I haven’t seen the original document and don’t know if it has additional data for validation.
I underline this could be a homonym of the Herman Jansz title of this thread. The name and surname were very common, but it matches the name, surname, geographical area and estimated date of death.

Eligio Gael Rodriguez Diaz WieWasWie is working again so i am able to view the record
https://www.wiewaswie.nl/en/search/search-results/record-details/a2...

The person who dies is recorded as "NN". Harman Jansz is a "relation", most probably a father registering the death of his still-born (or at least unbaptised) child.