Albert II, Graf von Everstein - Albrecht II von Everstein, mentioned 1142 and 1157, is he the same as person Albrecht I von Everstein?

I have know taken some time to study Meyer who seems to be the one with most references to old primary sorces. I Know it for some can give some who wish to participate in this discussion since it is in German, Therefor I will try to sum it up what it says. If I forget something please say so, if you find something.

D. J. Meyer: Zur Genealogie der Grafen von Everstein. NdSächs. LdV. f. Familienkunde, Sonderveröff. 7, 1954

http://www.mgh-bibliothek.de/dokumente/a/a023242.pdf

1. Konrad I von Everstein. According to the sorces Meyer refer to is first time mentioned in 1116 together with his unknown mother.
Sorce here is "Germanicorum II, 306" This Konrad is also mentioned in the Slave Cronicle.
In that year 1116 he is mentioned with is mother. Her name is not stated, but her taking part is. The document talks states their relation to the brotherhood of Corvey. An Abbey. In this document their is not mentioned a wife of Konrad which leads him to believe he is not married at this time.
So Konrads Marriage came sometime after 1116.
It also fits with the timeline of his wife. When she is surposed to be born and so on.(My thoughts)
According to this Albrecht I must have been born after 1116. The first mention of him shows up around 1142. Here he is the brother in law of of the Volkvin Graf von Schwalenberg. This Graf von Schwalenberg is born around 1125 or maybee a little sooner.
He then is mentioned in papers from this date on to around 1156. This date is known since his wife/ widow marries Ludvig II von Lohra.
Ludvig II von Lohra and Albrechts Widow has a daughter who is pointed out as " Puella zur Praelatrix of the abbey Kemnade Valgt. She hovever was rejected because of her youth, to the scorne of Albrecht 2 and her father Ludvig II von Lohra. This is also stated in a document.
Therefor the timeline is this: ALbrecht marries shortly after 1140 and dies just before 1158.
Around this time his widow remarries.
Albrecht 2: According to the 13 century chronicle of Alberich von Trois-Fontaines says he marries Rikessa of Polen ( Born around 1135)
Albrecht 2 is mentioned as vidness for Barbarossa who is cousin to Rikessa of Polen. Albrecht was in Italy around 1164 together with Barbarossa.
This Albrecht signes a paper together with his son Albrecht 3 just before 1202. " " Huius nominis Secundus" was how he signed himself. After 1202 his son signes document by himself, so it is likely that Albrecht the 2 died just before 1202.
Followed this the Timeline is: Marriage to Rikessa around 1168. Albrecht 3 born around 1170.

So the one that this link states as Albrecht the 2 is a construction that does not excist, if you follow the timeline of Meyer. and he has a lot of documentation of primary sorces.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAXON%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc285548262 a

Also because all the other Eversteins lieves a mark in the old papers also with their wifes. Their is also a Albrecht von Eberstein sometimes also called Everstein around the same time as Konrad. It could be a brother, but it is not clear. What I could find was this:
Adalbert von Eberstein/Everstein im Vogtländische DObnagau close to his castle funded the Johanneskirche in Plauen. Their is old papers that states this.
Wether he is an Everstein or an Eberstein is hard to say.

So after this read and also how well documented MEyer is with the primary sorces at hand, I believe that Albrecht 1 and 2 in the Medlands is one and the same person.

Forgot this one

http://de.academic.ru/dic.nsf/dewiki/538238#Stammliste

Here they use the the Europäische stamtafeln as sorce. This is the one Medland is based on.

They say here that it is most likely that Albrecht 1 and 2 is the same.

I agree with both of you. The lineage mentions Albrecht the III as brother of Albrecht the II, he had a brother Konrad II, so it looks a little strange as you mentions the lineage at Geni.

The lineage Eberstein und Everstein is two different lineage and I think it is vitale to keep these two lineage seperatede for the time being as it could lead to confussion even ther might be a slight connection between the familyes.

Chapter 12. GRAFEN von EVERSTEIN

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAXON%20NOBILITY.htm

Heres is the one that mentions they albrecht II and III are brothers.

Adelbert II von Everstein, Graf von Everstein

and the second lineage at geni Adelbert II I also find a little strange

Unknown Profile

Kind regards
Per

The Medlands state that their is a Albrecht in 1122 in Gau Ebene.

1. ALBERT [Adalbert] [I] von Everstein (-after 1122). Graf im Gau Dobene 1122. m as her first husband, JUDITH von Schwalenberg, daughter of WIDEKIND Graf von Schwalenberg & his wife Lutrud [von Itter]. The Chronographus Corbeienses records the marriage of "pater iuvenculæ Hloutwicus de Lare" and "sororem Volcwini" after the death of "viro suo Adelberto de Everstein"[212]. She married secondly Ludwig [II] Graf von Lohra. Graf Albert [I] & his wife had one child:

Problem: Albrecht 1 was son of a Konrad. This Konrad has left documentation on his person in the Sorces from 1116 onward.
He can theirfore very unlikely have a son that is mature enought to sign any documents in 1122.
Also if you take the primary sorces and see when Konrads wife is surposed to be born, then it makes it even more imposible. That goes for Albrecht 1 too when it comes to his wife.

Besides from that There is not a mention of a Count Everstein in and around Gau Ebene. That is an Eberstein. That one is a complete different family line.
I believe it is here Medlands go wrong. There has been a mixup of Everstein and Eberstein. Something that has all so been seen in the danish line, where the same bloodline has been called both Everstein and Eberstein from generation to generation.
The primary sorces that has been given to us by Meyer is very clear on when Konrad shows up and when he becomes Count of Everstein and that first date is 1116. And at that time and date he is not married.
This is not Meyer saying so, but the sorces from the time.

Medlands also at the beginning speaks of three brothers.

[Three] brothers, parents not known:

Who they are talking about here is not clear. No sorces mentioned.

I see this very differently. Europäische Stammtafeln and MedLands agree, so I don't understand who it is that has "strong doubts" about the existence of Albert II.

This type of problem is one of the most common in medieval genealogy -- there are scattered references to men of the same name. Are these two men really the same man? Are these three men really two men? It's never possible to find a final answer, just an answer that is commonly accepted by experts.

So, when there is a dispute like this one I want to know who are the experts that agree? Who are the experts that disagree?

I disagree with thinking that Konrad I mentioned with his mother in 1116 means he was not yet married. I would want to see something more than that.

Geni should show the most widely accepted version of the line and the most recent scholarship, whatever that turns out to be. In my database, I combined Albert I and Albert II, not Albert II and Albert III, but I'm not sure any of them should be combined on Geni.

Justin, why is it and why should it be different in your database compared to the one on Geni?

As far as primary sources go, I think we have as much as is known today, which means that I agree with you, it isn't possible to find a final answer about Albert II being the same person as Albert I or III or a person living in between them.

This disagrees though: http://www.mgh-bibliothek.de/dokumente/a/a023242.pdf written in 1953, with a lot of sourcecitations. How trustworthy they are though, I have no clue. Hope your german is better then mine.

I don't remember ever having a particular interest in this family, so all it means is that my source was different. I didn't make any notes about my reasoning, but I can see that I revised the information over a period of days so I must have had a hard time with it. It was during a period I had easy access to ES, but I didn't cite it. I don't remember whether I checked ES but disagreed, or whether I didn't get around to checking.

It doesn't bother me that the information on Geni is different. I often disagree with Geni ;) Geni should reflect the majority opinion of experts but my database reflects my opinion.

Looking at your link, does it change you opinion that the table in the back shows Albert I and Albert II combined, just as I have? The key is the death date ;)

I think the sources are ok, the lineage of the Albrecht I, II ec. also is valid.

The stamtafel mentioned Konrad I

The 3 brothers are mentioned, their parents are unknown.

There is doubt who Konrad the I parents is, well therfore the lineage starts with Konrad I, parenthood is pure speculation with no documentet sources.

Justin you say it doesn't bother you that the information is different on Geni. If Geni is based on the majority of experts validation of a speculative lineage, I would verry much know who those experts is and theire reasoning to put a rather speculative lineage on Geni misleading Geni users, I will take the freedom to call them Amateurs and not experts.

In my oppinion an expert is a person who claim to know what he is talking about, I used the word claim, because it's not the same thing as knowing.

I seen a lot of self apppointed experts or people talked about as expert and let me tell you a lot of them talks BS making theories of theire own

Justin I agree with you, it's better to have a opinion of your own and have a database reflecting the facts and sources that we know is thrustworthy and therefore not a subject of speculations.

I belive the lineage that is shown in the german sources of the house of Everstein is correct, my opinion and I would like to see it start with Konrad the I until the parenthood is known.

Would be nice if there was some German Geni users who could set the record straight because there is a huge chance of mixing up the different part of the small states of germany and the familyes in the early middeleage.

In my opinion Geni schould be as belivable as possible based on what is known, think the Curators schould have that in mind samething goes with the "Experts", misleading information surves no purpose.

New Geni users might use the misleading informations because they think Geni is a thrusthworthy tool for genealogic research, espicially if you use some of the selfapointed experts wrong doinges because it reflect the majoritys opinion, the majoritys opinion is often based on a self illusion that a belivable storrie is the thruth.

Did Iraq have Chemical, nuclear weaponand othe mass destrucionb weapon, well the experts said they had, facts is ?

This was just an example how manipulative experts validation is, based on what someone wants you to belive to get what they want.

Kind regards
Per Skulason

Well to start with I have not any problems reading german what so ever. I studied in germany for 3 years. Meyer for one is very consistent with his primary sorces. The sorces he use are all from around the time or close to this period.
Also the chronicles he uses are well known. Offcause as Justin states there is allways problems with the papers from the time and those written down after the period. Errows can sneak in, but it is the closest we got to the thruth.
I dont think that the problem here is the sorces, it more how they have been used.

Their is several problem with the Medlands and the Everstein familyline.
If we start with Albrecht 1.
Her is mentioned Albrecht 1 as something to do with Gau Ebene. How ever the Albrecht her is an Eberstein.
" Kurz vor 1122 stiftete Adalbert von Eberstein im vogtländischen Dobnagau in der Nähe seines Schlosses die Johanniskirche in Plauen."
This is the sorce that the Medland use.

Notice here the B. Another family. This is known as a fact. Here ALbrecht von Eberstein stiftet this church in GAu Ebene. It is also the known area of the Ebersteins with a B.
This Albrecht is also simultanious with Konrad von Everstein (With a W) are they reladed? That remain unknown, but if we should go after who is the founder of the Counts of Everstein, I do not think he is the one.

Second problem same man. This with his wife.
Jutta von Schwalenberg. She is surposed to be married to ALbrecht 1. JUst to state what I think is clear. IF she is surposed to be born 1108 and she remarry with Count von Lohra. This from the MEdlands

The Chronographus Corbeienses records the marriage of "pater iuvenculæ Hloutwicus de Lare" and "sororem Volcwini" after the death of "viro suo Adelberto de Everstein"[212

This is surposed to happen around 1160. and it is stated that they have one child a daughter. Problem. If she is born 1108 it meens she is over 50 when she give birth to this child. It is know through primary sorces of this daughter that she is very young, barely of age, in the 1170-1175.
I find that very unlikely!!!
In the medlands it is surposed to be his son that dies around 1158, but it must be her husband.
According to medlands ALbrecht 2 dies around 1158. Well another problem put up against Primary sorces from the time. A paper signed by Albrecht von Everstein from just before 1200 here is put in latin " Huius nominis Secundus" Her står han skrevet nominis(Navn) Secundus (Den der følger efter/ eller nummer 2)
This is just the things that I find that causes most problems. Their are other inconsistencies.

MedLands doesn't know the father of Albert I, but that doesn't mean anything. MedLands is often incomplete. Prof. D. J. Meyer thinks Albert's father is Konrad. Prof. Herbert Stoyan at Universität Erlangen-Nürnberg agrees. German Wikipedia agrees. What does Europäische Stammtafeln say? I don't know. If it says something different then maybe there is a problem. Otherwise not.

Who is Konrad's father? MedLands doesn't get that far. Meyer, Stoyan, and German Wikipedia don't know. There is one Geni user who thinks he was Berthold von Everstein- Schwaben. It would be worth asking that user for his source.

Finally, were there two Alberts or three? The number doesn't change the line. MedLands has three. Mayer, Stoyan and German Wikipedia have two. The difference is that MedLands inserts an Albert II, with an unknown wife. Even though it's different from what I have (from Stoyan), I suspect MedLands is correct. It says that Albert 1142 was called "Adelbertus, filius prioris Adelberti" (Albert, son of Albert), citing Chronographus Corbeienses (that is, Annales Corbeienses, 658-1148). This Albert 1142 is the man the other sources call Albert I and say was son of Konrad, but if he was really the son of another Albert then there must be another generation -- there must be 3 Alberts, not 2.

Stammtafeln has 3 Alberts before Albert IV married to Agnes von Witteslbach.

Albert III married to Richeza von Polen (Piasten)

Albert II mentioned 1142/1158.

Albert I (Adalbert) von Everstein, 1122 Graf im Gau Dobene 1113/1122, married to Judith von Schwalenberg, daughter of Graf Wedekind ( married 2 to Ludwig II Graf von Lohra 1133/1162, dead 1164.)

Albert I has 2 brothers:
Konrad von Everstein, 1126 Graf über Vogt von Helmarshausen, 1116 died after July 15th 1128.
Ernst Graf von Everstein urk. July 7th 1123. (Idon't know what german Word the abbreviation urk. can stand for.)

The parents of Albert I, Konrad and Ernst is NN and NN.

So also in Stammtafeln is Albert I mentioned as Graf im Gau Dobene.

Remi the word in German for Urk. is most likely "Urkunde"

Big problem here. The Everteins were not Count in Gau Ebene. Thats the Ebersteins! The Count Albrecht 1 married to Jutta was count of Everstein, so unless you want to connect the two families, their should be one less Albrecht.
As stated up in my former post.

" Kurz vor 1122 stiftete Adalbert von Eberstein im vogtländischen Dobnagau in der Nähe seines Schlosses die Johanniskirche in Plauen."

Note the B. That is the one Medlands and the Europäische stammtafeln talk about when they say. Albrecht 1 in Gau Ebene. This man is sometimes refered to as Everstein as well, but in the Primary sorces, in this particular document, he is an Eberstein with a B.

And maybee I should also mention that Judith von Schwalenberg is surposed to be born around 1108. She became mother of a child after 1158. Look at the numbers. I cant make it to fit the timeline!

In the Stamtafeln their is on op of the family chart to the so called Albrecht the 1. As if they are not sure he belong their. The others are documentet and they have drawn an unbroken line to the different generations. He is also put as simultaniusly with Konrad !

Just found this link:

http://books.google.dk/books?id=1HUAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA185&lpg=P...

Here they speak of an Albrecht in Gau Dobene. Again the name is Eberstein with a B

I have a link to the book Europäische Stammtafeln: Hessen und das Stammesherzogtum Sachsen
Edited by Detlev Schwennicke

http://books.google.dk/books?id=-rvsoLhPaWsC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA...

You might have to turn your Screen :-)

But tafel 82 Die Grafen von Everstein I, in Ohsen und Polle have the linie Albrecht

Tafel 83 Die grafen Von Everstein II, In Dänemark

Jeg vil lige henvise til en dansk slægtforsker finn holbaek http://finnholbek.dk/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I28250&tr...

Think his coat of arm is from the lineage of Eberstein and there seem to maybe be a mix up between the house of Eberstein and Everstein it is two seperate families.

However the lineage of the Eversteins seem correct at Finns page.

http://finnholbek.dk/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I28250&tr...

Please, totally forget Finn Holbæk when it comes to the Eversteins. He has used Dansk Adels Aarbog (Danish Nobility Yearbook, DAA) and these books have mixed up the Eversteins and the Ebersteins over several decades and generations, so it's a total mess. DAA is completely useless when it comes to these two families.

I'll come back to this after my vacation, but for now I want to say I'm skeptical about a birth date of about 1108 for Jutta von Schwalenberg. I would want to know the primary source for that date. It could be approximately right but it doesn't seem firm enough to build a tree around.

Jutta von Schwalenberg has 2 brothers. They are born around 1125. I think she must be born later than 1108. That would fit better.

And Remi you are absolutely right, the DAA is completely useless with this familyline.
It hovever seem to bee a general problem that people mix up the two lines.

Remi I agree with you when it comes to DAA and the Everstein, but it looks to me like Finn has the lineage of the Eversteins, so is seems that his aware of the mix from DAA.

Hej Anette

Just looked at the Internet Highway :-), some mentioned her birth to be 1121 and others again 1131 i can't see they have any confirmed sources her deat date i laso seen as late as 1184, but still no sources to back it up. However i agree with you 1108 seems to early.

No her death date is unknown, but she has this daughter who is born around 1160 or later, so she has to be born later than 1108.
On top of that. In order for her to have had a grown child Albrecht the 2 around 1142 she must have had him ad the age of 12. If she was born earlier her daughter could not have been born.

Yes but Albrecht the II is know from around 1162, to me Jutta von Schwalnberg could easyly be the mother of Albrecht the II if she is born around 1121 as some sugest, even Albrecht II schould be born around 1142 she will be at the age of 21. in 1160 she will then be 39 years old seem not unlikely either.

The Eberstein coat of arms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Eberstein#mediaviewer/File:E...

Von Itter Coat

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itter_(Adelsgeschlecht)

The Everstein Coat of Arms

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everstein_(Adelsgeschlecht)

Sometimes I seen it mentioned as Eberstein

Thats what I am saying Per, and Albrecht 2 does not die just before 1202. Their is documents primary sorces from the time that mention him.
But the ALbrecth on who is married to Jutta is not the Albrecht that the Europäische stamtafeln state as Albrecht 1.

About the Coat of arms. The Eberstein and the Evertein is very different, but it could have been taking from the wifes side. The Ittlers and the Everstein seems to be very simular.

By looking atthe differen Wappen drawings wemightbeableto asblich an early connection between the house of Everstein an dthe soroundings.

Nice we agree Anette.

Eberstein

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Eberstein

Libbe

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lippe_(Land)

House Libbe

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haus_Lippe

Plauen Everstein (Eberstein) Think the Eberstein might be a missspell of Everstein.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plauen

Vögte von Plauen; Fürstenhaus Reuss

http://ribewiki.dk/da/F%C3%BCrstenhaus_Reu%C3%9F

http://ribewiki.dk/da/F%C3%BCrstenhaus_Reu%C3%9F