Johanna Gouws, b3c1 - Date of death incorrect

Date of Death after merge, again: Either c. July 1794 OR 1762

Her 2nd husband (it was his first marriage), Ockert Brits, remarried 'after her death' on 2 Aug 1786. (Source: "Onder-Kouga: Bakermat van Gerbers en Ferreiras" by OJO Ferreira)
Her death should thus at the latest be before this date.
I will update to 'before 2 Aug 1786' on the farm 'Braamrivier', Onder-Kouga, South Africa.

Her last child (a Brits) was born 1762 - probably the reason that a death date of 1762 was cited earlier.
A more accurate date of death, based on what we know so far, would thus be 'between 1762 and 2 Aug 1786'. Place of death would logically be the farm of her 2nd and last husband, where he continued to farm for a very short period after his 2nd marriage (until 28 Oct 1786, according to the same source as cited in the earlier message).

Johann, take a look at this http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/gous/I032.html##I041 - cites 1794 Estate documents for her.

Thank you, Sharon. VERY strange, given information above (which has a more logical explanation). I will have a look at MOOC13/1/20 and revert in time.

Great. Thanks. You wonder if there are cases where the estate is only looked into years after the death?

Oops - do not have access to (or aware of access to) MOOC13/1/20. Will contact Richard Ball for his opinion and/or clarification.

:-)

I have now had the opportunity to interact with Richard Ball - bottom line is that we most probably have TWO Ockert Brits individuals mixed up here. I will try to get it resolved over time. Here is Richard's final word on 'his' Ockert Brits:
-----------------------------
"I have had another look at the document in question - in fact it
actually states her date of death - 3 Feb 1794.

I have updated my page on her and her husbands:

http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/gous/I041.html

The Ockert Brits who married Hester Catharina Osthuizen on
12th (note correct day) August 1786, was undoubtedly not the husband
or widower of Johanna Gousch.

All the best,

Richard Ball
Norfolk, England"

Have had a look, and my conclusion is that we had this Johanna Gous b3c1 married to the WRONG Ockert Brits here on Geni. [I would really welcome a second/third opinion on this.]

According to Richard Ball's website (http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/gous/I107.html) her second marriage was to "Ockert Brits d'oude". Alive at the time was Ockert Brits b7, the FATHER of the Ockert Brits b7c2 that is currently shown on Geni as married to Johanna Gous. The new perspective makes sense, both from the reference "d'oude" that Richard picked up in the archives, but also since Ockert Brits b7 was a widower at this time (his first wife Catharina Pyl having died in c.1732). The older Ockert (b7) would thus have been about 53 years of age when he married Johanna Gous (widow of Matthijs Strijdom) in 1758. She would have been 34 at the time, and the couple could well have had two children, Ockert and Pieter, born c.1759 and c.1762, respectively.

All the above would imply that GISA's oft-quoted information in SAG and SAF (for BOTH Brits and Gous) on who the Ockert Brits was that married Johanna Gous is INCORRECT. Only the new perspective would provide consistent answers for marriages, remarriages and children of Ockert Brits b7 and Ockert Brits b7c2. This is a significant new finding that should be made widely visible, as continued use of 'old' GISA info in SAG and SAF will sadly result in many mismerges for many years to come...

If you agree, Sharon, we should make the change as soon as possible and add a specific curator's note to both Ockert b7 and Ockert b7c2 to try to eliminate continued confusion.

We could now also add Richard's new finding that Johanna Gous passed away on 3 Feb 1794 (and thus have our original issue finally resolved).

I will revisit the information in OJO Ferreira's book "Onder-Kouga" to make sure that it is consistent with our new information, and I will change / add my notes on farm ownership and transfers accordingly.

Thank you so much for your assistance.

Could you please call Judi into this discussion (as current curator)? My @-symbol doesn't want to do the necessary today....

Thanks Johann - that's very interesting - and something we might not have realised without your researching deeper :-). Will cut and paste Judi's url when I get onto my computer. The @ almost never works for any of us :-)
I'm curating the profile; but not sure why Judi'll probably know more.
I agree with you that we should try and get it corrected, but Judi has been very ill - so she might take a while to get back to us here.

.. not sure why I'm curating: Judi'll probably know more.
I really can't punctuate using predictive text! :-/

Sadly we all suffer the symptoms of predictive text... ;-)

Let's hold our horses on this one for a little while longer.

Richard Ball and I are still interacting on some strange issues here. I would also appreciate the views of Lea Herbst/Duckitt on this one - she has apparently done quite some research on the Brits family, and we would not yet want to upset the apple cart, would we?

The strange issues here relate to the age of the actors and the different marriages:

The first relevant marriage was between a Ockert Brits and Johanna Gouws in 1758.
1. At this time Ockert Brits b7 would have been 53 years of age and a widower. (His wife Catharina Pyl having passed away more than 20 years earlier).
2. Johanna Gous, the bride, would have been a widow (of Matthijs Strijdom) and would have been 35 years of age.
3. Ockert Brits b7c2 would have been 24 years of age and a bachelor.

If (1) marries (2):
- He would be her senior by 21 years, but they could still have the two sons we know they had between 1758 and 1762. So this is OK.
- The marriage inscription in 1758, however, notes her as a widow (OK) and him as a 'jonkman'/ bachelor (Strange!)
- subsequent deaths and marriages do not pose a problem.
- her estate file refers to Ockert Brits, the elder - would fit this scenario perfectly.

If (3) marries (2) we would have:
- He would be her junior by 11 years (not common, but not impossible), and the marriage inscription of 'jonkman' would fit perfectly.
- HOWEVER, he would remarry Hester Oosthuizen in 1786 - which would be 8 years before his first wife (2) pass away in 1794. (VERY STRANGE).

So, could anyone shed some more light on what might have happened here. If we use Occam's Razor, then the first possibility sounds more probable!?

Latest status: (still not ready to make final call - busy with investigation)

It seems that the problem lies with confusing and conflicting information relating to the marriages of THREE Ockerts Brits (b7, b7c2 and b7c2d1).

Current best information seems to be:

1. Ockert Brits b7 (born 1705) married in 1731 to Catharina Pyl (no further marriages; date of death of b7 uncertain, but apparently before 1794)

2. Ockert Brits b7c2 (born 1734) married in 1758 to Johanna Gous (widow of Matthijs Strijdom) . She dies in 1794 and her Estate Distribution document is attached to her profile. Her husband is named Ockert Brits d'oude, probably because his elderly father is nog longer alive and his own son with the same name still is. Contrary to GISA's SAG and SAF Brits information there is NO second marriage of Ockert b7c2 to Hester Catharina Oosthuizen in 1786... Had it been the case, it would probably have been mentioned in the Estate file of 1794, following such an event in 1786. In fact, from naming patterns it seems that Hester Catharina Oosthuizen actually marries his son Ockert b7c2d1 in 1786. Getting back to the estate file - Ockert b7c2 had only two children (two sons) Ockert and Pieter with Johanna Gous. The third and fourth sons attributed by SAG/SAF, Ockert Rudolph and Johannes, belong somewhere else - and probably with their mother linked to Ockert b7c2d1. [This is evidenced by the clear duplication of their names under Ockert b7c2d1.]

3. Ockert Brits b7c2d1 (born 1759) marries Aletta Catharina Heyns in 1783. The first child (and son) is clearly named after her father, Michiel, in 1785. This is where SAG/SAF Brits goes off the rails. According to SAG/SAF Oosthuizen, Hester Catharina Oosthuizen marries this Ockert b7c2d1 (son of Ockert B and Johanna Gous) in 1786. Having not checked further evidence, this must imply that Aletta Heyns died in childbirth or within a year thereafter. All the further children of Ockert b7c2d1 must therefore be the children of Hester Oosthuizen! The names of the eldest daughter of Ockert Rudolph (who should be b7c2d1e4) provide another clue: "Hester Catharina Aletta" - Hester Catharina for her own paternal grandmother, and adding the Aletta for reference to her paternal grandfather's first wife (Aletta Catharina Heyns).

I really think that the above points 1, 2 and 3 now reflect the correct information (and resolves the red herring issue of the claimed 'second marriage' of b7c2). Points 1 and 2 have adequately been resolved. For point 3, secondary evidence for the (second) marriage of Ockert b7c2d1 to Hester Catharina Oosthuizen is provided by the SAG/SAF Oosthuizen listing. It would however be prudent to find corroborating evidence from estate files of Ockert b7c2d1, Aletta Catharina Heyns and/or Hester Catharina Oosthuizen.

IN SUMMARY:
- Ockert b7 is correctly reflected in SAG/SAF and on Geni - married only to Catharina Pyl.
- Ockert b7c2 will be correctly reflected in SAG/SAF if we REMOVE the claimed second marriage to (and consequent children of) Hester Catharina Oosthuizen [and add her and her children to Ockert b7c2d1 as probably correctly suggested by the Oosthuizen information in SAG/SAF].
- Ockert b7c2d1 was correctly married to Aletta Catharina Heyns, but she apparently passed away not long after the birth of their only child, Michiel, whereupon Ockert b7c2d1 actually married Hester Catharina Oosthuizen. This will require proof of the death of Aletta Heyns, and some substantiating evidence that Hester Oosthuizen and her children belong to THIS Ockert.

Much further work and insight required! Anyone interested, please assist and comment!

The Estate file of Aletta Catharina Heyns (listed under her profile on Geni by Lea Herbst) indicates that she had FOUR children with Ockert b7c2d1, and that she only passed away shortly before 18 March 1801...

SO, we are left with the awkward and difficult question:
Who was the Ockert Brits that Hester Catharina Oosthuizen married in 1786?? Is SAG/SAF Oosthuizen also at fault? Or was the date wrong? Or ??

Any help would be sincerely appreciated!

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