Theophanu, Empress Consort - Cut her parents?

Started by Justin Durand on Monday, June 9, 2014
Problem with this page?

Participants:

Profiles Mentioned:

Showing all 16 posts

I recommend cutting the parents of Theophano. Her parentage is not certain. She has been called a daughter of Roman II or of Konstantinos Skleros, patrikios. If the daughter of Skleros, then it is not certain whether by his wife Sophia Prokas or his wife Agatha Taronitissa.

Wagner gives her parents as possibly Roman II, Byzantine Emperor, and his wife Theophana, daughter of Romanus I, Byzantine Emperor. Theophana as daughter of Roman II is logical but in doubt. It appears in Weis, Ancestral Roots (3rd edition), as well as Complete Peerage, but was dropped from the 4th and 5th editions, based on a manuscript by Moriarty showing Theophana's probable descent as a daughter of Sophia Prokas, daughter of Leo Prokos, and her husband Konstantinos Skleros, brother of Marie, first wife of the Emperor John Tsimices. (Ancestral Roots, 6th edition, accepts the Moriarty material.) The Moriarty manuscript cites "Wer War die Kaiserin Theophano” (1939). -- adapted from Stuart, pp. 123, 133, 174.

"The parentage of Theophano, wife of the Emperor Otto II, has been much disputed. The evidence and arguments are summaried and discussed in a recent article by Count Rüdt-Collenberg, "Wer war Theophana" [Who was Theophana]. Prince Toumanoff (in a letter of 5 November 1972) comments that though this well sums up all the arguments, it fails, in his view, to draw the correct conclusions. "That she is referred to as a niece of John Tsimisces, instead of as a daughter of Romanus II is no argument, because at the moment of her marriage she was indeed the niece of the then reigning Emperor, that is, John I." Vasiliev has shown that Romanus and Theophano indeed had another child, so that there is room for Theophano in their family. Her name, rare enough, is that of Romanus II's low-born wife, assumed after her elevation.

"Finally, there is only one serious argument, cited by Rüdt-Collenberg, namely that of affinity and no trace of dispensation, in connexion with the marriage, or just bethrothal, of Romanus II's granddaughter Zoë to Theophano's son Otto III, that is, her first cousin. But the situation is not as simple as that. On the Western side, the fact (adduced by Rüdt-Collenberg) that we have no trace of a dispensation for such a marriage is rather an argument from silence, and silence complicated by the presence of an anti-Pope; he was a Byzantine creature and it was he who, prior to becoming anti-Pope, carried on the negotiations for the marriage (C.M.H., 6, (1966), p.184); he quite obviously would have acceded to the wishes of his Imperial protector at Constantinople. On the Byzantine side, one notices very often that the intransigence of the clergy withers before a forceful Emperor such as Basil II. Indeed, Zoë later married her second cousin (once removed) Romanus Argyrus and no questions were asked. In the view of all this, I personally consider Theophano a daughter of Romanus II, unless stronger argument to the contrary is produced." (Sir Anthony Wagner, Pedigree and Progress (London, 1975), p. 258).

"I would answer that arguing from a cited relationship is not conclusive in either direction. On the other hand, while an argument from silence is scarcely a strong argument against Theophana being a daughter of Romanus II, it is equally weak to argue that an anti-Pope, just because he conducted the negotiations, would have been likely to overlook the relationship. Just because a Pope (or anti-Pope) apparently permitted Zoë to marry her second cousin once removed with no known dispensation does not necessarily mean that there was no dispensation. Further, it is no evidence that he would or could have allowed her to marry her first cousin - a much more obvious relationship - in the same way. The argument that this Pope was a creature of the Emperor would be equally valid if it were argued that a dispensation would surely have been easily granted if one had been needed. Given the universal tendency to inflate the parentage of women when there is some question - and in this case, an understandable desire that the brilliant Byzantine marriage of the Emperor Otto have been made with the daughter of an Emperor rather than merely with a niece - I am inclined to accept the lesser (and equally plausible) line."

@"Theophanu,Empress Consort is my 33 grt grandmother it is fine by me to cut the parentshttp://www.geni.com/path/Judy+Rice+is+related+to+Theophanu+Empress+... is my link to her Judy Rice

When looking at the various opinions, the problem with this profile seems (to me) that I see no argument suggesting that her ancestry has been faked. In other words, the challenge is rather to side with one view or the other, on the basis of the opinions. Indeed, cutting her off from parents would go against the one thing that seems accepted , namely that she was a neptis to Tzimiskes. That acceptance suggests that the answer is likely to be one of the various opinions - so I would rather side with one of them (but I have no ambition in suggesting which one :-) ).

George, that's very frequently the case with medieval and ancient profiles. Their parents are this or that, but obviously not both. We have generally said that when we reach a point where there is disagreement, it's time to cut the connection and put the various theories in the profile. Do you prefer another system?

Hi Justin, Theophanu, Empress Consort, is my 31st great grandmother. In my lineage here on Geni.com, I see Constatine Skleros as her father and Sophia Phokaina as her mother. How certain is this information?

John, it's clear that she was somehow a member of the Byzantine royal family, but it's not clear how. The experts disagree and have mud slinging matches about it ;)

If you cut her parents, where would you put her? Would I still related to her?

You would still be descended from her, but not from Constantinos Skleros. We would put links in the overview of her profile to both of her possible fathers so that anyone who wanted to could find more information.

This is a good solution. Thanks.

Can some explain to me the curator of this profile in two or three sentences why the information in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophanu is wrong, why we don't follow the information in that article why we think we know it better. I'm not saying wikipedia is has it wrong or right, but it has more manpower then we have. And correct things get corrected very quickly. If we know it better then we should change that article. If wikipedia should follow us, that is ok. One profile one tree.

The Wikipedia article is poorly sourced. In fact, experts disagree.

Wikipedia is crowd sourced and can often be incorrect or outdated - you would need to review all the sources noted and investigate if any further articles/books/information has been located/published and review all their sources.

Re updating wikipedia - it is not Geni's role to ensure that Wikipedia or any other website is correct, the same as it is not Wikipedia's role to ensure Geni is correct.

Ok, then it is clear the wikipedia should follow Geni and use sources. So we can close that discussion.

Everard van Dijk has asked for this Discussion to be reopened.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BYZANTIUM.htm#Theophanodied991:

1. THEOFANO ([955/60]-Nijmegen 15 May 991, bur Köln St Pantaleon). A document entitled Luitprandi Legatio ad Nicephorum Phocam records Luitprand's mission on behalf of Emperor Otto I to negotiate a marriage between "filiam Romani imperatoris et Theophanæ imperatricis" and "domino meo filio suo Ottoni Imperatori Augusto"[1425]. Her name is not given in the document. It is unlikely, given the date of the marriage of Emperor Nikeforos Fokas and Theofano (in 963) that any daughter of theirs would have been considered marriageable in the late 960s by Emperor Otto. It is therefore likely that the document was prepared before Luitprand's visit, in ignorance of the details of the emperor's family members. The identity of the proposed bride is therefore not certain. Prior to Luitprand's arrival in Constantinople, Emperor Nikeforos was murdered. According to Thietmar, his successor Emperor Ioannes Tzimiskes sent his niece Theofano back to Germany "not the desired maiden…accompanied by a splendid entourage and magnificent gifts"[1426]. Western sources consistently refer to Theofano as "neptis" of Emperor Ioannes Tzimiskes, for example the charter dated 14 Apr 972 under which "Otto…imperator augustus" granted property to "Theophanu, Iohannis Constantinopolitani imperatoris neptim"[1427]. Her exact relationship to Emperor Ioannes Tzimiskes is unknown. It is possible that she was a relative of the emperor's wife rather than of the emperor himself. Davids suggests that she was the daughter of Konstantinos Skleros and his wife Sofia[1428], who was probably the sister of the first wife of Emperor Ioannes. An indication that this may be correct is that Theofano's second daughter was named Sophie, normal Byzantine practice being to name the first daughter after the paternal grandmother and the second after the maternal grandmother[1429]. It also appears to be chronologically sustainable. However, too little is known about the families of Emperor Ioannes and his wife to propose this as the only plausible hypothesis, especially as the word "neptis" could cover a wide variety of relationships. In addition, it cannot even be assumed that the wife of Konstantinos Skleros was the only individual named Sofia in these families at the time. "Otto…imperator augustus" granted property to "Theophanu, Iohannis Constantinopolitani imperatoris neptim" dated 14 Apr 972[1430]. Lay Abbess of Nivelles. She was regent during the minority of her son 984-991. Thietmar records the death of Empress Theofano at Nijmegen on 15 Jun and her place of burial[1431]. The necrology of Merseburg records the death "15 Jun" of "Theophanu imperatrix"[1432]. m (Rome 14 Apr 972) OTTO co-Emperor and King of Germany, son of Emperor OTTO I "der Große" King of Germany & his second wife Adelheid of Burgundy [Welf] (955-Rome 7 Dec 983, bur Rome St Peter's).

Showing all 16 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion