Gerhard III, Graf von Dagsburg & Egisheim - Gerhard's parents

Started by Private User on Wednesday, June 4, 2014
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Private User
6/4/2014 at 12:38 AM

According to Gerhard's birth date I don't believe that he is the son of Hugo IV Egisheim and Helweig von Dagsburg (their death date is before Gerhard's birth date). Probably he is the son of graf Heinrich (Heinrich I, count of Egisheim) accordind to source

There is also a question whether his wife Petronilla (Richarda) of Verdun was really also wife of his son Gerhard IV.

Can anyone confirm or comment?

6/4/2014 at 6:56 PM

Private User

There has been a bad merge here, it is not that Gerhard has the wrong parents it is that he has the wrong birth and death dates.

Reading Medlands (i have no other source) the profile that you are talking about "Gerhard III" is listed as "Gerhard I", the son of Heinrich is listed as "Gerhard II".

I don't know who Gerhard III is or if there even is one listed on Medlands.

It looks like at some point the profiles of Heinrich's uncle and Heinrich's son have been merged, possibly creating a Data Conflict, resulting in a profile occupying the location in the tree of the uncle but containing the data of the son.

If i am reading correctly Gerhard I was graf von Egisheim _only_, he must have had no sons because his nephew Heinrich (who is heir to his father's title of graf von Dagsburg) is known as graf von Egisheim und Dagsburg. Heinrich with two sons seems to have split the lands between them so that Gerhard II is also only graf von Egisheim. So regardless of which Gerhard the profile is supposed to be the Title/Surname(?) is wrong.

As for his wife marrying his son, well there is no son mentioned in Medlands (as i'm sure you know) so it suggests more bad merging.
Looking at the Revision Tab there was a merge in 2011 between Gerhard III and Gerhard IV (Geni profiles not Medlands naming), the wife probably got duplicated in this process.

It is altogether possible there never was a son.

Justin Durand any suggestions of other sources that we could compare Medlands with?

6/6/2014 at 8:57 PM

I'll put this one on my list, but might be awhile before I get to it.

6/7/2014 at 12:37 AM

If it helps I can at least align it with Medlands data as a start.

6/7/2014 at 3:21 AM

I decided to climb the tree a little and work down towards Gerhard. I went as far back as his ancestor Eberhard IV, count in Nordgau (mainly just because i liked his name :) So the problems start immediately.

Eberhard is married to three women on Geni, Medlands only mentions one and even her identity is not certain.

Two of his wives, Unknown Profile and Luitgarde of Treves , appear to be the same woman but cannot be merged as both are MPs.
The third wife, Bertha de Metz , is nothing more than a name with no data and only one manager.

Medlands lists only one son for Eberhard, his About section mentions two. His probably wife on Medlands has no other children so where the other 6/7 children come from is anyone's guess.

I say 6/7 because the two MP wives have both a daughter named Hedwig that look to be the same person:
Unknown Profile and the MP Hedwig of Nordgau

6/7/2014 at 8:49 AM

I did some light clean up to add data and merge some duplicates.

These the ancestors of the Habsburgs. There are several different reconstructions, so we might have to live with some ambiguity until someone has time to review the literature.

Remember that MedLands is not necessarily complete. Good if you're correcting information, but not good to rely on it to give every known source or relationship.

6/7/2014 at 4:56 PM

I think you have mentioned previously that what Medlands has is good but that an absence is not proof of anything which was why i did not actually change anything myself.

6/7/2014 at 10:31 PM

Eberhard's step-mother, Unknown Profile , seems to be a duplicated for his wife Luitgarde of Treves (Medlands only gives his father one wife).

Eberhard's brother Hughes IV, comte de Nordgau has no wife or children on Medlands. Here on Geni he seems to be a mix up of his father, his brother and his nephew Hugo VII "Raucus", count in Nordgau

First up Medlands names him Hugo VI not Hugo IV.

Wife, Unknown Profile , seems to actually be his mother, Hildegarde de Ferrette . This wife has a daughter Adelaide von Dagsbourg but she is not connected to any profiles other than her mother, bit of a mystery, one possibility is that Geni does not have a profile for Eberhard's sister who Medlands names Adela? Both women die in 961 so i think this is 90% likely.

Another wife is Unknown Profile (she is born in Ortenburg c.942). She seems to match Eberhard's daughter-in-law Berlinde von Ortenburg but neither is mentioned anywhere in Medlands so who's wife she actually is?? Perhaps neither?

Wife #3 is Unknown Profile who's only claim to fame is that she is mother of Unknown Profile . Don't get confused, this is not the same Gerhard III as this discussion started with (actually it could be but as Medlands doesn't have a Gerhard III it's hard to tell). It is possible that his wife, Unknown Profile , is actually the wife of Eberhard's grandson. Her name is Heilwig von Dagsburg but Medlands includes a latin version "Heilewide".

This leaves just one more questionable child of Hugo, namely Unknown Profile , now the obvious logic here is that Rancus is a misspelling of Raucus which is the nickname of Eberhard's grandson Hugo VII "Raucus", count in Nordgau.

6/8/2014 at 3:15 AM

Moving down a generation to the only son of Eberhard who is confirmed by Medlands we have Hugo VII "Raucus", count in Nordgau .

The three wives on Geni are an MP Berlinde von Ortenburg and Unknown Profile and Hawise von Hohenburg , none have sources or About sections and i think the third wife is just a "place holder". Medlands estimates her birth c.950 but has no name for her.

Hugo's children match Medlands with the exception of his daughter Adele von Hohenburg who seems most likely to be a misplaced profile for Adelaide von Dagsbourg , the sister of Eberhard mentioned in my previous post.

6/8/2014 at 3:53 AM

Hugo's eldest son is Eberhard V Graf im elsäßischen Nordgau (comte en Nordgau) who on Geni is married to "Mrs" and "Unk" on Medlands is shown as married to Berta. The most likely candidate on Geni for Berta is his sister-in-law Berta de Bourgogne married to his brother Gerhard. Medlands does not list wife for Gerhard, in fact it is not 100% that he is even a brother.

Another Berta presumably the same woman is married to his nephew, Berta de Bourgogne.

The same managers that attach this wife to Gerhard also give him a son and a daughter-in-law named Gerhard and Petronilla which is certainly a very popular name as Gerhard's brother has two sons named Gerhard, both of whom are married to women named Petronilla!?

6/8/2014 at 5:22 AM

So Hugo's youngest son and heir to the title is Hugo VIII, count in Nordgau & at Egisheim.

According to Medlands his eldest son is Gerhard I, on Geni he has two son's named Gerhard, Gerhard I von Egisheim, Graf von Egisheim and Gerhard II, Graf von Dagsburg & Egisheim , both are MPs but clearly looking at their wives these are duplicates of the same man.

The second child listed on Medlands is Mathilde (there is no matching profile on Geni) who is married to Richwin, comte de Charpeigne who on Geni is married to Hugo's daughter Mathilde von Egisheim (who is not listed on Medlands, pperhaps just a naming thing?).

Third on Medlands is Hugo IX(who at first glance looks good).

Fourth is Bruno/Pope Leo.

Fifth is Adelheid.

Six is Gertrud.

Seven is an unnamed woman who marries Otto, Duke of Swabia.
Now Geni does show Hugo's daughter Gepa von Egisheim as married to Otto II, duke of Swabia BUT Medlands lists Gepa as the 8th child and an Abbess of St Quirin at Neuss in 1050. So it looks like Otto may be married to the wrong sister. There is a N.N. von Egisheim although currently HE cannot be married to Otto of Swabia, perhaps a quick sex change...

6/8/2014 at 5:26 AM

Gerhard III mentioned in the previous post is the profile this discussion was started from.

6/8/2014 at 5:08 PM

Justin Durand
Is what i have posted so far helpful to you or just a waste of time?
I know you are busy and I am NOT trying to give you a hurry up!

If this stuff will _eventually_ be helpful to you i will continue, if not i will stop.
In that case i can either head back to time periods i am more confident in or i can start merging and rearranging these profiles myself.

6/8/2014 at 7:58 PM

Alex, I can probably read MedLands as well as anyone else, but it looks like you're having fun. I wouldn't want to stop you ;)

I don't see any reason you need to wait for me to start work. MedLands is a good source if you keep in mind its limitations. I wish we had more people like you willing to do the work.

This line has been worked and re-worked since the 1700s. Lots of disagreement. Even English Wikipedia and German Wikipedia sharply disagree (or did last time I looked). I have copies of some of those old sources, but if I were working on this line I would do exactly what you're doing -- start with MedLands to get the basic outline from the primary sources, then fill in later with other detail. (I wouldn't even look at my own pre-MedLands notes until much later.)

As you work, don't get hung up on the numbering. The numbering was added much, much later. Some sources use dynastic numbering and some sources use titular numbering, so a particular Hugh might be V if you count from his earliest paternal ancestor, or III if you count from the different Hughs, maybe in different dynasties, who held that title. I don't doubt the numbering is one reason for the confusion on Geni. We'll probably end up using MedLands numbering because it will be the least confusing. Anyone who is dealing with other sources will be able to cope with the differences.

6/8/2014 at 8:06 PM

Okay, i'll start shuffling profiles around then for my own entertainment and just use this discussion when i have a problem like trying to merge two MPs.

6/8/2014 at 8:10 PM

That works for me. Also let me know if you need me to unlock or change name fields. That's something easy I can do even in the middle of my big crunch at work.

6/9/2014 at 5:36 AM

Louis de Charpeigne, comte de Mousson 's death is listed as circa 1067 but it does not match any of the data in his About section.

Medlands records:

Comte Louis is last recorded 29 Aug 1071 in a declaration of his son Frederic, but died before 1076 when his widow invested Sigefroi as abbot of Saint-Mihiel[15].

Especially as Geni now has a Between function i think the date should be changed to 1071-1076 but the profile is locked to editing.

6/9/2014 at 6:24 AM


6/9/2014 at 3:45 PM

Can you check the Tree Match for Agnes of Waiblingen.

According to German Wiki she is daughter of Emporer Henry IV aka Kaiser Heinrich

6/9/2014 at 8:14 PM


6/10/2014 at 5:03 AM

Can you complete the merge that i began on Aldiud

She is locked so i could not attach the son so i created a place holder mother and then tried to merge ... tried being the operative word.

6/10/2014 at 5:14 AM

Note to self:
Adelaide von Oltigen, heiress von Oltigen is NOT married to Anselm she is young wife of Conrad I.

Conrad's mistress Aldiud is married to Anselm BUT the two Anselm profiles do not immediately seem to match.

6/10/2014 at 5:16 AM

Getting pulled away from Egisheim!!!

6/10/2014 at 7:50 AM

Did the merge on Aldiud.

I don't have a source at hand, maybe Jackman, but there is some source that gives Adelaide von Oltigen as wife of Anselm de Noyen, and wife or concubine of Conrad.

6/10/2014 at 8:54 AM

On Auxilia, shown on Geni as daughter of Aldiud and that other Anselm, my notes say:

Blass and Winkhaus believe that Auxillia / Ancilia was daughter of Arnold von Schännis, who was 972-976 Reichsvogt of Zürich, a descendant of the Lenzburgs, Counts of Baden, through the Hunfrieds of Rhaetia and Istria. Moriarty lends his support, however, to Monteyer's theory that she was the daughter of Anselm of Noyen and Adelaide of Oltigen.

This suggests to me that Auxillia is misplaced.

6/11/2014 at 5:00 AM

I can't split [Humbert II, count of Savoy "the Fat" from his wrongfully wedded wife Gisela of Burgundy, Duchess of Bavaria

6/11/2014 at 5:36 AM
6/11/2014 at 5:44 AM

ACtually this part of the tree needs work too

6/11/2014 at 6:09 AM

Charles "le Gros" Duc de Basse-Lorraine wtf is this supposed to be? ??

or,_Duke_of_Lower_Lorraine ??

Someone else? He certainly is in the wrong place but nfi where to move him to.

6/11/2014 at 8:09 AM

Humbert III, done.

Boudewijn III, done.

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