Thomas Fleming, the immigrant - Found it

THANK YOU. I had over a millennia of history dating his (and my!) ancestry all the way back to the Great Heathen Army. And someone had to go and ruin it!

Erica Howton as MP curator, can you check out this claim?

I don't see how an amateur family website can be more authoritative than Scots Peerage or Burke's. Those sources have their problems, but we need to find something a bit closer to primary evidence. If the claim is true, it should be very easy to find and document.

Has anyone reviewed the previous discussions on this profile?

see, for example:

http://www.geni.com/discussions/135770?msg=942836

Please provide proof of parentage.

Multiple excellent sources show the children of the 1st Earl of Wigton. It does not seem he had a son Thomas. (Alexander is a different question from different parents).

One site provided says:

On this page there is a disclaimer:

http://www.plefka.net/Family/Family97.htm

" This line includes a questionable and undocumented link from the "Oil Creek Flemings" and the Fleming Earls of Scotland. Due to this question, the Scottish portion of the line is is serious doubt. However, if not ancestors, they are Cousins. See "Questionable Parenthood" below."

Then under the children of John 1st Earl of Wigtown Fleming (1566-1619) & Lady Lillias Graham (1570-1605)

He writes:

We know of 8 children of this marriage:

Sir Thomas Fleming b 1605 (in England)

Lady Lillias died in 1603 at Perth, Perthshire, Scotland.

How could Lilias have a child two years after she died?

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This site http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=m......

Has a son Thomas born in 1616 - Yet also says the Earl remarried to Sarah Maxwell in 1611.

Now this site is one I use quite a bit for my southern families, and I think they do a nice job compiling. But I try to "chase the citations" and evaluate their quality.

So for their page on Sir (sic) THOMAS FLEMING "the Immigrant"

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mysouthernfamily/...

they reference:

[S706] John Penn EMail: jpenn@cyberg8t.com 6/98.
[S1121]Gene Harrison, EMail: EHarris1@columbus.rr.com 11/99
[S1558] Descendants of John Fleming, WDC GenWeb. Contributor: David Warren Email: dwarren4@pdq.net 1/01 http://www.rootsweb.com/~deschart/z0001122.html
[S1964] Ancestry of Ursley Duke Williams (ca 1762-1802) William A. LaBach, 311 Duke Road Lexington, KY 40502 859-269-1868. EMail: labach@lex.infi.net http://members.tripod.com/~labach/williama.htm#i6293m

I'm pretty sure William LaBach is a member of Geni (don't know how active) and he's provided excellent insight into my own direct relatives. He's been very careful in his records to indicate what he knows to be facts and what he does not know.

His Tripod site is probably long gone but feel free to try raising him up.

In the meantime I "personally" prefer as close to factual as we can get in the Geni tree.

So really it's up to the descendants.

"personally" - I find nothing better than this comment:

origins

Comment found on profile:

Maybe Alexander. They have no facts on this guy.

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If it were my family they would be aghast at me perpetuating an unproven & unprovable myth in their tree if I know otherwise. That is how I try to curate.

But by the same token I am not interested in playing games. I've labeled as best I can, disconnected, documented, provided link backs, etc. If any of that can be improved please suggest it and it will be done.

It's up to you all whether I disconnect again.

This is my half-sister's line, and I also have 2nd cousins who are descendants, as well as my great grandfather's third wife.

My very strong preference is not to show this connection.

In my family group as well - my second cousin's wife was a descendant.

http://www.geni.com/path/Sarah-Howton+is+related+to+Thomas-Fleming-...

My strong preference is not to show this connection.

By the way - is Christ Church Parish, Middlesex Virginia in New Kent? I think the profile death date is wrong and belongs to JOHN Fleming?

Christ Church Parish, Virginia Records, 1653-1812
Primary Name: John Fleming
Death Date: 27 Aug 1686
Comment: departed this Life and was Buried ye 30 Aug 1686

A little searching and I think I've found info about this origin myth. I will upload to relevant profiles for future reference.

From http://heathcock.org/genealogy/ps20/ps20_439.html

Likewise, dozens of online family trees assert that Ursula Fleming was a descendant of the Scottish Earls of Wigton.2037 However, this remains controversial.

An early seed for the belief that the Virginia Flemings were descended from the Earls of Wigton was an ancient Fleming family letter, that was related in Volume 23 of the Virginia Magazine of History and Biography around 1900:

"An old record preserved in the Fleming family states that the immigrant ancestor was 'Sir Thomas Fleming, second son of the Earl of Wigdon in Scotland who married in England Miss Tarleton, and came to Virginia in 1616, settling first at Jamestown and afterwards removing to New Kent County 'where he lived and died.' Besides several daughters he left three sons 'Tarleton, John and Charles.' How far this statement in regard to the descent from the Earl of Wigton is correct has never been investigated, but certainly the date given for the immigration is too early. There may be other errors in the tradition.... It is quite possible that the Virginia Flemings descended from one of the younger sons of the Earl. A letter written in Virginia more than a hundred years ago which states that one of the family, the older brother of judge Wm. Fleming, was then heir to the Earldom of Wigton, shows the antiquity of the tradition."

A related version, asserting that a Thomas Fleming, 2nd son of John Fleming was the Virigina immigrant, appeared in an 1880 book by Montgomery Seaver, entitled “Family Fleming Records.” Seaver gave the following chronology:

• John Fleming 5th Lord Fleming: succeeded to title on death of brother James in 1558. Had issue:
• John Fleming 6th Lord Fleming of Biggar and Cumbernault, created, 1606, Earl of Wigton: d. 1619, and
• SIR THOMAS FLEMING: Knt, emigrated to the Va. Colony, 1616; lived in Kent County.

However, both these articles are incorrect in one important aspect--John Fleming, the 5th Lord Fleming and 2nd Earl of Wigton, did not have a son named Thomas.

Talked to a cousin tonight. I wish I'd known that this would make her cry. She says this is "a very old fraud". She will send me her notes. When I get them, I'll add them here.

Thank you, Justin.

My cousins lived and died in an area of Kentucky that is too small to even be a town. Yet he served his country and they lived a good long time. I feel it dishonors everything they stood for & especially the pioneer spirit that brought them there to perpetuate a fraud in their ancestry.

I really appreciate the additional documentation.

I think you hit the nail on the head, Erica. My goal in doing genealogy is to find the real story, the gut stuff about life's struggles. Connecting someone to illustrious ancestry without good evidence seems to dishonor them by saying, "This person didn't really struggle, because they were born with a silver spoon in their mouth."

I think he didn't exist at all. I look forward to more details of the fraud.

Marsha Gail Veazey

You curate Ursula Keeling

The source I noticed

http://heathcock.org/genealogy/ps20/ps20_440.html

Says very clearly -

"Ursula’s father was not Thomas Fleming--this is an incorrect legend."

Did we want to disconnect her from (what looks like he might be) imaginary person?

The info from my cousin doesn't seem to amount to more than we already know. Citations to Dictionary of National Biography and Cracroft's Peerage. Two sterling secondary sources, neither of which mention a son Thomas. Therefore, Thomas is an late intrusion into the genealogy of that family.

Also this comment: "Lord John, Earl of Wigton? Give me a break. A solecism like that screams poor research. Run the other way."

I'll see if I can get more.

http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/wigtown1606.htm

Thanks, I'll fill in more of the Earl's tree from this.

Private User

You curate

Captain John Fleming

A merge has brought in more plausible dates for his parents - and that dating would rule out this John as a son.

An alternate ancestry is posted here

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=macla...

I wonder if we could revisit this? It's my 2nd cousin's ancestry.

My thanks.

Erica Howton
Justin Durand

I'm with you guys - I prefer facts to fiction in genealogy.

I have no problem whatsoever in another curator making changes in my work, with documentation, and even taking over the curatorship, if you want it. In fact, I like to see the same curator shepherding several generations of a family, to ensure continuity of data.

It looks like you have done a mountain of research. Do you want to go ahead and make the changes? Otherwise, I'll read up on your notes and sources, and then do it.

The Flemings are very distantly related to me - my particular interest in them was in separating the wrong Fleming from the Bolling line.

Have a wonderful Sunday!
Maria

It doesn't look like I am going back to sleep any time soon, so I did some research. Familysearch.org has at least 25 John Flemings born between 1625 and 1640 in Scotland -- that should cover all the possible dates of birth for him I've seen -- and FindMyPast.com throws in 3 more from England.

Familysearch.org has records of the births of two children from the rootsweb link mentioned above.
*Lidia Fleming was born in 1679 in Charles Parish, York County, VA, the daughter of John Fleming and Mercy (last name not recorded).
*John Fleming was born in 1683 in Charles Parish, York County, VA, the son of John Fleming and Mary (last name not recorded).

I can't say at this time if Mary and Mercy are the same person or two different women.

New Kent County and York County are neighboring counties. New Kent was created from York County (see Wikipedia for each county). There could have been a Charles Parish in both counties, or the Charles Parish in York County could have become Charles Parish in New Kent. It's been my experience that when one county is sliced off from another, amateur genealogist do not always get the county names correct for the year of the event being recorded.

Since the children were registered at birth in YORK, I believe our mystery John Fleming lived in York County and not in New Kent.

Also, the Samsawadee link for the immigration and marriage of John Fleming is now a dead link.

If anyone has a reliable source for Virginia headrights, even a book I have to buy, I would love to know about it. While the claims were not always used right away, it is helpful to know who imported the claimed person. There is always a reason behind importing someone. That story often solves a riddle about the imported person's ancestry.

Done, Erica. Thanks very much.

Captain John Fleming

I have removed the parents of John Fleming. I have rewritten the curator statement at the top of the profile and expanded my additional curator's notes on the overview.

If we can pin down more information on the supposed parents Alexander and Elsbett of Glasgow, I'd be happy to add them to the profile. For now, I don't want to remover yet another disproven set of parents. I'm more comfortable with him appearing in the tree without parents for now. I think that would be less confusing for the average Geni user.

The "source" for Alexander is here - http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=macla.... It is a user-submitted tree on the LDS website, which was further developed by the LDS Medieval Families Unit, Their comments say "(Capt.) Alexander FLEMING (b. abt 1612 in Cumbarnauld, Lanarkshire, Scotland - d. 30 Dec 1668 - 13 Mar 1668/9 in Rappahanock Co. VA), merchant, Burgess and Guild Brother of Glasgow, admitted 2 Apr 1646 [who could possibly be a son of "Sir Thomas" or the brother of John, sixth Earl -- see below.] Archibald F. Bennett [in "Finding your Forefathers in America", Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft Company, 1957, pp. 122-130] quotes some earlier family admissions from Volume 56, The Scottish Record Society, Records of the Burgesses and Guild Brethren of Glasgow, 1573-1730: "On 10 April 1629 the following were admitted as Burgesses and Freeman, gratis: John FLEMING lord (This would be the later 3rd Earl.); Alexander FLEMING his brother; William FLEMING, also his brother; Alexander FLEMING, their uncle; Patrick FLEMING, in Balloch; Malcolm FLEMING, servitor to John, Earl of Wigtown; Robert FLEMING, servitor to John, Earl of Wigtown (son of Malcolm FLEMING of Woodelie); John FLEMING, servitor to Earl of Wigtown." Let's stay as far away from those Wigtons as we can until we have firmer ground to stand upon.

Maria

Maria sounds like a plan! Thank you very much.

It also agrees with what I recall from a few months ago; there is an unproven possibility that Alexander Fleming of VA is the Alexander Fleming of the (Bogshall ?) Flemings.

This might be an area where DNA studies will be able to answer the question definitively.

Private User, Private User any thoughts about this?

@Remi.
I would do a DNA test to prove it once and for all.

The Alexander Fleming line seems to be different from the (supposed) Thomas Fleming line. But in any event they would need to be DNA compared with known descendants of the Wigtoun Flemings - if there are any.

There are new records that show that he is indeed connected to the Flemings in Scotland.

There are new records that show that he is indeed connected to the Flemings in Scotland.