d'Avranches - confusion reigns

Started by Terry Jackson (Switzer) on Friday, May 16, 2014
Showing all 6 posts
5/16/2014 at 4:32 PM

There are conflicts amongst this area of the tree that I am trying to sort out but am struggling to get consensus. Following Medlands we have Hugh "Lupus" d'Avranches son of RICHARD "le Goz" Vicomte d'Avranches & his wife Emma [de Conteville] ([1047]-St Werburg's Abbey, Chester 27 Jul 1101[18]). He is named as son of Richard "le Goz" by Orderic Vitalis[19]. A manuscript relating to St Werburgh´s Chester records that “Hugo Lupus filius ducis Britanniæ et nepos Gulielmi magni ex sorore” transformed the foundation into a monastery[20]. This suggests that the mother of Hugues may have been a uterine sister of King William, and therefore daughter of Herluin de Conteville. However, no indication has been in other primary sources which supports the contention that Hugues was the son of a duke of Brittany. It is assumed therefore that both lines of his parentage have been romanticised in this document to improve his status and reputation. Robert of Torigny's De Immutatione Ordinis Monachorum records that "Hugo vicecomitis Abrincatensis postea…comes Cestrensis" founded "abbatiam Sancti Severi in Constantinensi episcopatu"[21]. The Brevis Relatio de Origine Willelmi Conquestoris records that "Hugone postea comite de Cestria" contributed 60 ships towards the invasion of England in 1066[22]. Orderic Vitalis records that William I King of England granted Hugues the whole of the county palatine of Chester[23] in 1071, whereby he is considered to have become Earl [of Chester] (as shown below, some primary sources do indicate the territorial attribution although it is unclear whether any of these documents were strictly contemporary). He succeeded his father in [1082] as Vicomte d'Avranches. An undated charter records the grant of pasturage rights "ad castrum Claromontis, Credulii, Gornaci, Lusarchiarum" to Saint-Leu d´Esserant by "Hugo comes Cestrensis" and "Hugo Claromontensis et Margarita uxor eius", later confirmed by "Rainaldus comes" with the consent of "uxore eius Clementia et filiis eius Guidone et Rainaldo"[24]. Domesday Book records that “Earl Hugh” held Bickton in Fordinbridge Hundred in Hampshire; Drayton in Sutton Hundred and Buscot in Wyfold hundred in Berkshire; his land-holdings in Dorset; and in numerous other counties[25]. Florence of Worcester records that, in 1098, he and Hugh de Montgommery Earl of Shrewsbury led troops into Anglesey where they mutilated or massacred many of the inhabitants of the island[26]. "…Hugonis comitis…" subscribed a charter dated 14 Sep 1101 under which Henry I King of England donated property to Bath St Peter[27]. He founded the abbeys of Saint-Sever in Normandy and St Werburg in Chester, becoming a monk at the latter four days before he died[28]. Orderic Vitalis states that Hugues was "a slave to gluttony, he staggered under a mountain of fat" and was "given over to carnal lusts and had a numerous progeny of sons and daughters by his concubines"[29]. The Annales Cambriæ record the death in 1101 of "Hugo comes Crassus urbis Legionum"[30]. A manuscript narrating the descent of Hugh Earl of Chester to Alice Ctss of Lincoln records the death “VI Kal Aug” of “Hugo primus comes Cestriæ”[31].

m ([1093]) ERMENTRUDE de Clermont, daughter of HUGUES de Clermont [en-Beauvaisis] dit de Mouchy & his wife Marguerite de Roucy [Montdidier]. She is named as the wife of Hugues by Orderic Vitalis, who also records her parentage[32]. The Genealogiæ Scriptoris Fusniacensis refers to a sister of "comes Rainaldus" as husband of "comiti Hugoni de Cestre"[33].

Earl Hugh & his wife had one child:

1. RICHARD d'Avranches ([1093]-drowned off Barfleur, Normandy 25 Nov 1120). A manuscript narrating the descent of Hugh Earl of Chester to Alice Ctss of Lincoln records that “Richardus filius eius” was “puer septem annorum” when he succeeded “Hugo primus comes Cestriæ”[34]. He is named as the only son and heir of Hugues and Ermentrude by Orderic Vitalis[35]. He succeeded his father in 1101 as Earl of Chester and Vicomte d'Avranches. William of Malmesbury records that Richard drowned with his wife following the sinking of the “Blanche Nef [White Ship]”[36]. The Continuator of Florence of Worcester names "…Ricardus comes Cestrensis, Otthuel frater eius…" among those drowned in the sinking of the White Ship[37]. m (1115) MATHILDE de Blois, daughter of ETIENNE II Comte de Blois & his wife Adela de Normandie (-drowned off Barfleur, Normandy 25 Nov 1120). Her parentage and marriage are recorded by Orderic Vitalis[38]. William of Malmesbury records that she drowned with her husband following the sinking of the “Blanche Nef [White Ship]”[39]. The Continuator of Florence of Worcester names "…neptis regis Comitissa de Cestria" among those drowned in the sinking of the White Ship[40].

Earl Hugh had three illegitimate children by unknown mistresses:

2. OTTIWELL [Otuel] (-drowned off Barfleur, Normandy 25 Nov 1120). He was tutor to the children of Henry I King of England. "…Otuero filio comitis…" witnessed the charter dated 1114 under which Henry I King of England granted the land of Roger de Worcester to Walter de Beauchamp[41]. His parentage is confirmed more precisely by the Continuator of Florence of Worcester who names "…Ricardus comes Cestrensis, Otthuel frater eius…" among those drowned in the sinking of the White Ship[42]. [m ([1116/19], as her second husband, MARGUERITE, widow of WILLIAM de Mandeville, daughter and heiress of EUDO de Rie, dapifer, of Colchester, Essex & his wife Rohese ---. The Genealogia Fundatoris of Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire names “Margareta” as daughter of “Eudoni dapifero Regis Normanniæ”, adding that she married “Willielmo de Mandavill” by whom she was mother of “Gaufridi filii comitis Essexiæ et iure matris Normanniæ dapifer”[43]. According to the Complete Peerage, this genealogy is “probably erroneous” but it does not explain the basis for the doubts[44]. Her second marriage is suggested by a charter dated [1141/42], under which Empress Matilda made various grants of property including a grant to "Willelmo filio Otuel fratri…Comitis Gaufredi" (identified as Geoffrey de Mandeville Earl of Essex)[45]. The only contemporary "Otuel" so far identified is the illegitimate son of Hugh Earl of Chester.] Otuel & his wife had [one] child:

a) [WILLIAM FitzOtuel ([1120]-after [1166/75]). Empress Matilda made various grants of property including a grant to "Willelmo filio Otuel fratri…Comitis Gaufredi" (identified as Geoffrey de Mandeville Earl of Essex)[46]. It is not certain that "Otuel" was the same person as the illegitimate son of Earl Hugh, although as noted above no other person of this name has yet been identified. The co-identification appears confirmed by the following two charters. "Hugo comes Cestrie" confirmed a donation of land in Thoresby donated by "Willelmus filius Othuer" to Greenfield priory, Lincolnshire, for the soul of "patris mei Randulfi", by charter dated to [1155] witnessed by "Matilla matre sua…"[47]. "Willelmus comes de Essex" confirmed a donation of land in Aby and South Thoresby donated by "Willelmus filius Otueli avunculus meus" to Greenfield priory, Lincolnshire by charter dated to [1166/75] witnessed by "Simone de Bello Campo…"[48]. "…Willelmo filio Otueri, Rannulfo de Seis, Ingeramo Bagot…" witnessed the charter dated to the reign of King Henry II under which "Matildis de Stafford" granted land in Theddlethorpe, Lincolnshire to "Matildi filie Roberti filii Gilberti filiole mee", with the consent of "Johannis filii mei et Radulfi nepotis mei"[49].]

3. ROBERT (-after 1102). He was recorded as the son of Hugh Earl of Chester by Orderic Vitalis, who specifies that he was a monk at the abbey of Saint-Evroul , Normandy[50]. He was appointed Abbot of Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk in 1100 by Henry I King of England, but deposed in 1102 by Anselm Archbishop of Canterbury at the Council of London[51].

4. GEVA (-after 1120). “Geva, filia Hugonis comitis Cestriæ, uxor Galfridi Ridelli” founded Canwell priory, with the consent of “Ranulfi comitis Cestriæ cognate mei…hæredum meorum…Gaufridi Ridelli et Radulfi Basset”, by undated charter[52]. "Radulphus comes Cestriæ, Willelmo Constabulario et Roberto dapifero" confirmed the grant of "Draitune…in libero conjugio" to "Gevæ Ridel, filiæ comitis Hughes" by charter dated to [1120][53]. m GEOFFREY Ridel, son of --- (-drowned off Barfleur, Normandy 25 Nov 1120). He was granted Drayton Basset in Staffordshire.


In conflict with the above some think that Robert, Illgt son of Hughe "Lupus" died on the white ship others think that he had two daughters Mabilla and Leticia. Letitia de Malpas is listed as his granddaughter and his daughter
and William Belward William I le Belward married Letitia (dau/grandau), and Robert's other daughter Mabila Fitzhugh (de Malpas) Also a William Belward seems to be married to Robert fitzHugh's neice, Mabel d'Avranches dau of Hugh the younger.
These can't all be correct.

Terry, I'm not sure if I can shed any light on the situation, but when I have time, I'll see what I can do.

6/9/2014 at 6:31 PM

Not to add insult to injury but it is known that the Massey family gave St. Werburg's and were no doubt related to Hugh Lupus. Hugh gave Hamo De Mascy/ Massy 9 Lordships in Cheshire. King William Rufus gave my Massey line Pontington because he was, " a proficient archer". It turns out both the Massey and Comyn lines were General's in the Kings Army, in charge of the royal siege train, a.k.a. archers, etc. Dunham archers are well known. A recent DNA analysis connects the Massey and Conteville/ Comyn De Burgh lines haplogroup I1 Z138+. So, the Massey and Coman/ Comyn lines share a great grandfather at some point in time.

John David Massey: The de Mascy family is said to have originated in La Ferté-Macé (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Fert%C3%A9-Mac%C3%A9 ). The Comyn family is said to have originated in Comines (now part of Comines-Warneton - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comines-Warneton ). The two locales are some distance from each other. Could the common ancestor belong to yet another family whose female descendants married into the Massey and Comyn families?

-----

Links to sources that I'm going to use to untangle the Avranches confusion:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL.htm#_...

http://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/continent/aa/azvar01.php#link1

6/11/2014 at 3:09 PM

John Albert Rigali, preparing for hiatus I will be interested to see how the two sites compare as I've been using Medlands but have not got access to Stirnet although I have heard good things about it.

3/9/2015 at 2:52 AM

Hugh Lupus forefather to Comyn? Maybe this explains the Comyn/ Massey DNA connections. https://books.google.com/books?id=UWFsAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA12&lpg=...

Showing all 6 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion