Defining a Matriarch - de Ruelle/Bruere family

I would say that you must define "arrive" to determine whether Anne was Primary Matriarch (PM). I would say prior to arrival in the port she has not arrived- therefore she died outside of SA and is the same as if she died in France. She is therefore not PM.
Having decided that AG has not arrived in SA, all her daughters are potential PM's therefore EdR must be a PM

I agree with you Daan!

Sounds like the most logical argument.
Maybe someone should add that to the South African Profile Guidelines: http://www.geni.com/projects/South-Africa-Profile-Guidelines/16231

Following the above reasoning the de Ruelle sisters are designated Primary Matriarchs 1 and 2, Can we come up with an acceptable abbreviation to use - I propose SM-P1 (b1) and SM-P2 (b2). I have loaded images for these - they can easily be removed!

Private User, Sharon Doubell, Daan Botes, Private, John Sparkman and Private User Drievis Johan Jonker as points out the Guidelines should probably draw attention to this discussion and project.

Correction! Anne Marais, b2 SM/PROG] who married Charles Marais is Primary Matriarch 2, but in her own right - therefore PM-2 (F) b2 as she is not PM of the Marais family.

I agree in full with you June and Daan et al.
She can't be of the Marais as the Marais mother Catharine did arrive and as you said married the de Ruellle SV.
Daan you still have to send me an Afrikaans version to properly understand this. With the op coming closer I get more scared and understand less other languages than Afrikaans. This sound like maths to me now.LOL.
Love to all.

...but she is a Primary Matriarch 2, but in her own right - therefore PM-2 (F) b2 as one of two first women of that name to arrive in South Africa Private

Agree as said above June. Bietjie blonde today.

I used the other 'developing theory' project discussion to ask for clarification on the necessity to distinguish between primary and secondary matriarchs. I think I'm missing something important so I'm going to wait for the answer there before I clog up here, but in the meantime just say how great it is that you guys are doing this.

Happy birthday for the weekend Judi, by the way. Hope you had fun.

I believe that Stammoeders/matriarchs need to be addressed because they are different from the Stamvaders in that the family name is (usually) that of the father, which means that her significance needs more accurate definition - especially in the case of Secondary Matriarchs.

Also totally beyond my comprehension.

Yes, it definitely does, June. Defining the terms is way overdue obviously.

“When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.”
A. A. Milne quotes (English Humorist, creator of Winnie-the-Pooh, 1882-1956)

Peter Dennis...Gone fishing! Chuckle!!!

In this case it seems we are sitting on the distinction between matriarchy and matrilinearity. Hmmm that's a puzzle, but a fascinating one. Thinking more....

Are there Afrikaans words to distinguish between the two.

Lol Peter, me too :-)

Matrilocality (cultures where the men move to live with the wife' s clan) - vs virilocality (the females move into the male's clan on marriage ) are going to effect how we see this idea of matriarchy (and amongst the southern African black tribes, both are practiced!) so we probably need to spend careful time making sure we'e all talking about the same thing.

I'm moving my these posts to http://www.geni.com/discussions/135070?msg=937813 because I think they'll take this discussion off topic, if that's okay with everyone.

Sorry Sharon. Thank you for the b'day wishes. I did had great fun. Johan and his two daughters decided this year oumie gets spoilt.

Using the possible definitional categories that I suggest here: http://www.geni.com/discussions/135070?msg=938133: "For myself, I would suggest that the most logical solution is also the simplest one: The oldest father in a family that comes to South Africa is the "SV/PROG" (Stam Vader / Progenitor); and the oldest mother is the "SM/PROG" (Stam Moeder/ Progenitor).

In the cases where this means that the wife of the SV is not acknowledged as the Matriarch of his Surname Line of male descendants, then, I suggest we add a Curator note or profile image that acknowledges her as the "M" (Matriarch/ Matriarg) or a variation on that wording."

I would say that Esther Bruere, b1 is the SM/PROG - ie Female progenitor of the du Ruelle immigants, because she's the oldest female ancestor of that family to get off the boat. (Her sisters, if they also have descendants - would follow the formula we already use for an SV's younger brothers: SM2 etc)

If we want to acknowledge that she married a SV [Estienne Bruere, SV/PROG] and became '''Matriarch''' of the Bruere family, I'd say we need to think through whether / how we put both SM/PROG & M Bruer/Bruwe onto her profile, or just leave the SM/PROG (even though that applies to her father's biological family, not her husband's lineage)

If we decide to leave one out, I think her biological designator SM/PROG is the more important one to remain.

fascinating! At this point I have nothing to contribute but a THANK YOU for dealing with this .... I am learning!

I see where you are coming from Sharon and agree that this is a good solution. I have played with an image for the Matriarch - have a look at and alternative http://www.geni.com/photo/view/4560155096930045739?album_type=&...=

I have used the Kun trigram mother/earth symbols - any thoughts suggestions welcome! You know me - I like something visual to mark/highlight people who play a specific role!

Not sure the links worked First image

http://www.geni.com/photo/view/4560155096930045739?album_type=&...=

alternative

http://www.geni.com/photo/view/4560155096930045739?album_type=&...=

They all work June. Thank you. As always a star.

We all need to agree and I suggest choose between one or the other

I think they're fantastic too June. You're brilliant. I was fascinated by the Kun trigram mother/earth symbols - I love symbology - and went and looked if there were Khoi or cave painting equivalents. But no.

I like the colour one the best, but the monochrome one fits better with the SV/PROG image, and that uniformity is important, I think.

Also - I haven't heard back from Daan on his concerns about linking the 'SM' to 'PROG' and not 'Matriarch'.=What we call today a SM/Prog we cannot change because it was established and entrenched by genealogists as the mother of the family for which her husband was called SV/Prog.=

My proposed solution:
Well then maybe use the terms to distinguish between the PROG (birth progenitor mother) and the SM (Stam Moeder/ Matriarch/ SVs wife)

This would necessitate 3 images:
1) SM/ Matriarch (maybe add SM to this image you've shown us - on the right, where the pictographic writing is at the moment? I defer to your judgement tho, that's just me getting involved)

2) Progenitor

3) SM/Prog (the image we have at the moment: to be used when the person is both a Matriarch & a Progenitor)

What do you think?

Sounds good - will see/address that now.

Here's another condidate!
Alida van den Berg, b4 Looks as if her mother was the SM/PROG but she married an SV/PROG and should have the new image?

1 gets the new image
Not sure who you see as 2 - Progenitor ?
2 uses the establish image

New image - http://www.geni.com/photo/view?album_type=project&photo_id=6000...

New colour image http://www.geni.com/photo/view/4560155096930045739?album_type=&...=

I think that it is best to keep the images in line with one another so my preference would be the pink one.

PROGENITOR- a woman who has only daughters?